“being efficient got me more work, not more money. so i left.”
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big 4 transparency
by dominic piscopo, cpa
for 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间
when mike maksymiw, executive director of the aprio firm alliance, walked away from a $500,000-a-year partner role without another job lined up, he wasn’t chasing a title – he was chasing alignment.
in this episode of the big 4 transparency, host dominic piscopo welcomes maksymiw back for his second appearance, digging into aprio’s recent acquisition of the ps+ alliance, the firm’s private equity playbook, and the deeply personal journey that led maksymiw to where he is now.
more dominic piscopo | more private equity | more pay & compensation
aprio’s acquisition of the ps+ alliance (previously part of rsm) adds team members and roughly 60 new firms to its already expansive alliance network, now approaching 100 firms across north america. maksymiw says the merger wasn’t just about headcount. “it broadens how we can go find answers… different success stories, different failure stories,” he explains, emphasizing the shared learning opportunities between large and small firms in the network.
but what’s a fast-scaling pe-backed firm like aprio doing supporting local, independent practices?
“it’s kind of an oxymoron,” maksymiw admits. but aprio’s alliance model serves a key strategic purpose: helping smaller firms retain crown jewel clients even when those clients ask for complex services outside their wheelhouse. “you do everything else. we’ll do the one weird thing,” he says. “and we’ll just have a great relationship.”
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piscopo also zeroes in on aprio’s surprising employee satisfaction scores – ranked highest among pe-backed firms in big 4 transparency’s annual report – and why the culture seems so different. for maksymiw, it comes down to autonomy, curiosity, and top-down permission to try and fail. he credits aprio’s private equity partner, charlesbank, with bringing capital without dictating operations. “they didn’t say ‘we can run you better,’” he says. “they said, ‘we want to learn everything you know.’”
the second half of the episode turns deeply personal, as maksymiw reflects on the presentation that made waves at the bridging the gap conference: “why i quit (and what they could’ve done to keep me).” he recounts moments of misalignment, missed leadership opportunities, and what finally clicked at aprio. but before landing the perfect fit, he leaned heavily on a career-spanning network, developed over years through aicpa’s leadership academy, state societies, and nonprofit boards.
“the job didn’t exist,” he says. “but i didn’t need 10,000 of them. i only needed one.”
8 key takeaways
- alignment matters more than titles. seniority and compensation can’t replace the sense of purpose and alignment that come from doing work that fits your values and goals.
- strategic alliances can drive transformation. mergers and alliances aren’t just about size—they’re opportunities to share knowledge, expand service capabilities, and strengthen relationships between large and small firms.
- private equity partnerships don’t have to mean loss of culture. with clear boundaries and trust, capital investment can accelerate growth while still preserving autonomy, innovation, and firm identity.
- collaboration helps smaller firms stay competitive. when local firms can access specialized expertise through alliances, they can retain key clients and deliver broader value without losing independence.
- empowerment fuels engagement. cultures that encourage experimentation, curiosity, and a “permission to fail” approach tend to attract and retain top talent—especially in fast-changing professions.
- career transitions rely on relationships. long-term professional networks, built through associations and community involvement, are powerful enablers of new opportunities and leadership growth.
- retention is a leadership issue. many departures stem not from the work itself but from misalignment with leadership, communication, or firm culture—areas leaders can address proactively.
- the right role may need to be created, not found. the most fulfilling opportunities often emerge when professionals combine self-awareness with initiative, crafting roles that match both personal purpose and organizational need.
more about mike maksymiw
mike maksymiw quit his job as a partner at a cpa firm to pursue his goal of disrupting the areas of the profession that don’t make sense. he is a tireless advocate for value vs. time, family initiatives, inclusion & belonging, work/life harmony, and challenging the historical norms the accounting profession clings to. maksymiw is the leader of aprio firm alliance, where future-oriented firms convene to discuss challenges and solutions for running their firms. members share resources, ideas, successes & failures, receive coaching, and participate in peer group roundtables to move toward becoming future-oriented firms. he is a past chair of the ctcpa board of directors, a 2010 alumnus of the aicpa leadership academy, a past member of the aicpa women’s initiatives executive committee, and has served on various other task forces/committees at the ctcpa and aicpa.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
dominic piscopo (00:00.962)
hello and welcome to the big four transparency podcast. i am joined today by mike maximeo, our first repeat guest on the podcast. and for good reason, i’m a huge fan of everything he does and says. he’s also the executive director of the aprio firm alliance. welcome back to the pod, mike.
mike maksymiw (00:02.616)
big for transparency podcast. i’m joined today by mike maximeo, our first repeat guest on the podcast and for good reason.
mike maksymiw (00:18.121)
great to be back, dom.
dominic piscopo (00:19.82)
yeah, yeah, it’s great to have you. so i’m gonna apologize in advance for anyone listening to a very croaky voice, but bridging the gap was a pretty good party. and then i just came back from my bachelor party as well. so apologies for that. but mike and i chatted a whole bunch of bridging the gap. and yeah, we have a whole kind of fresh new docket of things that i really would like to pick his brain on.
mike maksymiw (00:42.104)
yeah, fantastic. let’s go.
dominic piscopo (00:44.374)
all right. so i mean, to start us off, maybe kind of with some some recent news, you, apria recently acquired the ps plus alliance, which as the director of the alliance, i mean, impacts you quite a bit. let’s talk about that deal and then what changes for member firms if the ps plus alliance is as a part of that.
mike maksymiw (00:45.986)
mean, to start us off, maybe.
mike maksymiw (00:57.987)
yeah.
deal in
mike maksymiw (01:06.388)
and so the, the really cool part about, the acquisition from rsm is that we took the entire team as well. so there’s 38 new team members. there’s roughly 60 new firms, which puts us at over 40 team members and at nearly a hundred firms throughout the country, including in canada, that pretty much go from like a million to 60 to 80 million in revenue. i haven’t memorized all of the stats yet, but there’s a very large swath of firms that.
our team now has like the expertise to go serve. and the way that i was talking to these folks about it and was, so if i’ve got a $2 million primarily construction audit practice in new york, and you’ve got a $40 million firm with a $20 million audit practice with a $3 million niche in construction audits, those two folks can still talk. so it’s not just about the size of the firm because a lot of the firms that were in the apprio alliance like,
dominic piscopo (01:57.859)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (02:03.17)
they’re ditching down into their very specific like expertise level. so then they can share information even with larger firms who have experts themselves. they just have more of them. so it’s still really fun to be able to think of how a larger firm can interact with a smaller local firm and both still get value out of it. and then flip side, that flip side, but a secondary really fun thing is my local firm, filamino, was in the rsm alliance. so these people were my alliance leaders.
so i’ve known them for more than a decade. like they’re my people and now they’re my colleagues and it’s wicked fun.
dominic piscopo (02:38.316)
that’s cool. that’s awesome. and so in terms of like what’s changing for them, it kind of just seems like an unlock of more resources, right? for the most part, like, you you used to have 50 people you could go to now you have 100.
mike maksymiw (02:52.216)
yeah, it really broadens how we can go find answers, how we can interact and be vulnerable and share what our questions are and hear different perspectives and responses on them, different success stories, different failure stories. cause no one gets to success the first time every time. like we all trip, fall down, dust ourselves off and get back up. and now there’s a hundred people you could ask those questions to and maybe 50 have done it. and maybe there’s seven different ways that they’ve seen it work.
and then you get to go, cool, i think that a piece of this one and a piece of this one is really gonna work for me. and thank you both for sharing all the knowledge that you have with me. and as i move through this, i’m gonna go share it with others and back to you.
dominic piscopo (03:30.862)
and then from the aprio perspective, like what’s the strategic wedge of like a large firm like that running an alliance because it seems like a relatively kind of disconnected thing. and there’s a lot of value kind of being provided to these other firms. but like, especially as a private equity backed company now, like it feels like the move that they’re normally after is to just acquire everyone. so like, where does the alliance come into play and all that?
mike maksymiw (03:57.73)
yeah, it’s kind of an oxymoron, right? apri is this big firm that’s acquired a lot of firms. it’s growing like a weed for the last five, six years and in a very intentional and strategic way, which i really enjoy. and then we’ve got this ecosystem of local accounting firms and regional accounting firms that we provide resources so they can exist on their own, if that’s part of their strategy, right? so the alliance isn’t built to like be a feeding ground. it’s actually built to help support the larger profession and
dominic piscopo (04:19.917)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (04:27.68)
all the different levels and areas you need firms to be at. because some local businesses need a local firm in their community that understands their community to go serve them. and some need more services, so a regional firm is better. and all these other firms though, every now and again, one of their best clients goes, hey, i’ve got a weird question. and the firm goes, i’ve never done that before. what am i gonna do now? cool, i’ve got 100 alliance firms and a top 25 firm in my back pocket that i can go.
figure out how to get this done so i can keep the client. more importantly, the client gets to keep that relationship with their local accountant because that local accountant can do 90 % of all the stuff that client needs. apple will just do that weird project that you need or the other alliance member will go do that weird project. and we do that for roughly 100 other firms around the country outside of the alliance firms. so it’s really fun to be interacting with so many firms around the country, see all their different niches and expertise. and then when something falls out of that,
dominic piscopo (05:03.884)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (05:25.536)
they all have a place to go to get that other thing done.
dominic piscopo (05:28.546)
hmm. yeah. no, i think that makes a lot of sense. and, and i’ve spoken to some part like partners at big four, who had at one point considered leaving and starting their own firm. and that was actually one of the big biggest roadblocks for them where they didn’t actually go forward with it because they’re like, well, so what’s going to happen down the line is like, you know, i’m going to get this crown jewel client, and then they’re going to want someone off weird service offering that i can’t offer.
and then i’m going to churn out my biggest crown jewel client every time it happens. so i’m a little bit scared to go out on my own. so i might just stay here, right? and so i think that that’s like really important for people to understand the dynamics of that. like that’s out there and it does exist and you can get the resources to serve them.
mike maksymiw (06:14.412)
yeah, for some people, they’ve already curated a network during their careers and they’ve got friends in areas that can help them out. and that’s fantastic. but for someone who spent 15 years at one or maybe only two firms and they want to go hang out their shingle and let’s say it’s a big four firm, right? is that crown jewel client going to want to pay big four fees for that special project? probably not. or they would just be at that big four firm. so that’s why the, in your example, the person sitting there like, man.
what do i do? well, a firm like aprio has a program where it’s like, you can just, we’ll just do that one weird thing. like we’re good with that. you do everything else. we’ll do the one weird thing and we’ll just have a great relationship and you get to keep serving a client. we’ll just have two firms serving that client. whoop-de-doo.
dominic piscopo (06:58.764)
yeah. yeah. i mean, i like the top down tone of like, just a place that makes it happen where when richard gets in trouble for the app, real name, he literally just goes and changes his name. like it just, kind of sends a message of like, hey, we’re just, we’re going to find a way to make the thing happen. right. so, yeah.
mike maksymiw (07:17.858)
yeah, yeah, that’s a fun story how we we burnt a firm in from north carolina and their state board requires a founder or a partner’s name to be in the firm name. so we called up his mom and he was like, yeah, so i’m going to add a middle name mom, it’s 50 bucks instead of fighting a legal battle with the state of north carolina. she’s like, okay, honey, you come over for dinner. so now he’s richard berry, aprio, copeland, because it’s a simple solution.
dominic piscopo (07:42.626)
yeah, no, i love that. that’s like my favorite, just absolute favorite story of like just, all right, fine. yeah, we’ll make it happen. right. speaking of richard, i’m, i’m going to ask you his, favorite question. i asked it to him at firm growth forum and he came and thanked me later, but, so in the spring, right, i released this annual thing with big four transparency, where i look at like the highest rated firms by employee satisfaction.
mike maksymiw (07:50.2)
yeah.
dominic piscopo (08:11.796)
and with pe being such a topic of discussion, i did a breakout for pe and apri was actually number one in terms of employee job satisfaction at pe backed firms. you know, we just talked about some of the tone and like, you know, attitude towards stuff that i think is very admirable. but are there things that you think are being done differently at apri is a pe backed firm or like, you know, are there things that have changed since becoming pe backed even for that you can see like from your vantage point?
mike maksymiw (08:29.358)
there.
mike maksymiw (08:36.238)
are there things that are.
mike maksymiw (08:41.944)
yeah, there’s definitely changes for sure. mean, the acquisitions have definitely ramped up and so has the lateral partner talent that we’ve been able to hire, right? because we can offer things like incentive programs and phantom stock, however we name it or whatever it’s called for whichever investments that it’s made in. our partner, charles bank, we chose them with intention because they have all of their knowledge and expertise and they want to learn all about accounting from us.
and i’m fortunate that the partner that i report to for the alliance, he’s on the board with the charles bank folks. so i get to hear kind of secondhand stories of the questions that they’re asking and that they want the accounting firm knowledge. they didn’t come in and say, hey, we can operate you better. they’re like, you operate awesome. we want to invest in these areas. right? like we just had an announcement. have got a $300 million commitment to, you know, utilizing account, artificial intelligence inside of the firm with intentionality.
and we just acquired a firm that was in the aicp accelerator program in 2024 that specializes in that in the accounting industry. so that’s super fun. it’s one of the first things we’ve done in that realm. and as you said, like we just have this belief from the top down of we’ll go get it done. and if we hasn’t had done before, we’ll try and we’ll fail and we’ll learn and we’ll try and we’ll fail and we’ll learn and we’ll be successful. like, and it really is like.
dominic piscopo (10:05.698)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (10:08.706)
top down and the leadership supports us doing that, which then lets me do that in the alliance, which then helps us help the firms do that at their firm. and they kind of can see this cascading effect. so even that leadership type of ethos extends beyond within aprio because we have this alliance that we’re constantly talking to our firms about the things we’re doing because they ask. and then the mindset we have around it, like, hey, you don’t have to be scared to change. like it could be super fun.
dominic piscopo (10:38.284)
yeah, yeah. and i mean, from the charles bank perspective, like, it feels like they can probably learn at such an accelerated pace versus just like a one off firm that’s not as plugged in like that. i had the opportunity to talk to i pray that i’m pronouncing this properly, but muchen. and he’s yeah, he’s he’s a really, interesting guy. and you can tell that like, he, he just has this like rapid fire stream of questions for you have just like
i just want to know everything you know, right? like he’s yeah, he’s a really cool guy to talk to.
mike maksymiw (11:09.592)
yeah. i mean, you mentioned questions and throughout my career, i’ve a lot of times i got asked questions from leadership. they were passive aggressive statements framed as questions versus it. apriio. when people ask questions that they really want to know, like, hey, why’d you do that? not you were wrong. what’d you do? it’s like, no, no. like why, like what went through your brain? cause i want to learn. and charles bank is really similar, within the, us being the first accounting firm investments. it’s.
dominic piscopo (11:32.931)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (11:39.766)
that really mattered to me when i heard some of those stories in the beginning of how much they wanted to learn from us as well and how much they wanted to contribute to us, not just with dollars, but with knowledge.
dominic piscopo (11:48.684)
yeah, yeah, there’s something to that, i think, in a lot of the private equity conversations. and i have some convo’s with the private equity groups and some conversations with owners of firms, right? but where they talk about like, a lot of them are looking to acquire a platform firm, right? they’re looking to acquire like the the main firm that they’re then going to kind of like run all the acquisitions through or use that as a model to build out the other firms and stuff. and i do feel like
being a part of the acquired platform firm is probably kind of the most interesting part of the journey versus being kind of like one of the later tack on additions. i think that’s probably where it’s like you’re being told things need to change. but i think being acquired as the platform firm is probably actually like you’re now setting this tone for all these other firms and like we’re gonna kind of figure that out together, right?
mike maksymiw (12:32.302)
but i think being a
mike maksymiw (12:43.746)
yeah, it really, it feels that way. cause even before the investment from charles bank, apri was acquiring a lot of firms and we were apriotizing them as we say, like part of our mna strategy is we have apri a week with each of our firms where our integration team, who their only job is integrating firms goes to their office for a week and sits there and like we have a tax leader who will be like, this is a tax software and here’s how i used it because
i was a manager at aprio, know, i’m a staff senior manager. i’ve used it. i’ve reviewed it. i know our process. this is why. and that’s super helpful if you’re sitting there going, man, i had to switch tack software. this stinks. no, i’ve got an internal expert that’s here to hold my hand with questions. and she’s sitting here the whole week. this is amazing.
dominic piscopo (13:28.835)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (13:32.546)
yeah, yeah, no, that’s that’s really cool. yeah. speaking of something else that matters for for you, but what like what’s the approach towards pr and like, why? why does it seem like it’s maybe so different, at least for you? i don’t know if that’s firm wide, but at least for you where you seem to really get like room to spread your wings, right? like you’re one of the very few people from a top hunter firm that i’ll talk to, let’s say.
mike maksymiw (13:32.918)
and that matters to me.
dominic piscopo (13:59.512)
who isn’t like, okay, i need to run this by a pr firm. you just kind of like get to go, you get the runway to go. or when the pwc layoffs happen, right, you really kind of just stepped in and sent this firm this alliance wide email saying like, hey, talk to dom, he’s got a bunch of pwc people who’ve been let go and want to have conversations, right? which thank you for and on behalf of a lot of other people who got interviews, thank you. how does that come to be again? because
mike maksymiw (14:00.046)
isn’t like, okay, i need to run this bio.
mike maksymiw (14:26.368)
something because right like this scale like
dominic piscopo (14:28.076)
right? like with scale, i find like comes a certain level of red tape and like that doesn’t seem to be the case, at least in any of my interactions with you.
mike maksymiw (14:33.56)
that doesn’t seem to be case, at least in any of my…
mike maksymiw (14:39.45)
i think what it is is just a general concept of after who hires really smart people and doesn’t tell them what to do, they ask us like, what do need to get it done? and we, we have real autonomy to go do those things, not the perceived autonomy you get if you’re hitting your internal metrics at a larger firm. and then as long as you are, leave you alone. but as soon as you’re not, now you start getting a little bit micromanaged. that’d be fair with
dominic piscopo (14:50.947)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (15:07.075)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (15:08.45)
good news is we’re hitting the metrics. but as you said, the autonomy shows up in other ways where if like my natural inclination is to go out and poke bears and stir pots and challenge the historical norms, the industry has been around for 125 years and we’ve all inherited it from someone before us. and a lot of times we don’t ask questions because well, it’s worked. but then it’s like, well, what’s the definition of it worked? like we make good money, but we work a hundred hours a week. like to me, that doesn’t work.
dominic piscopo (15:27.149)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (15:38.094)
so why are we working 100 hours a week? can we make the same amount of money working 40 hours a week? can we make it working less than 40 hours a week? what if that’s what the profession looked like? and we’re obviously not going to go from 100 to 40. and yes, 100 is purposely a really high number that i hope nobody is working. but it just sets the tone of asking the questions about everything we inherited.
dominic piscopo (15:40.6)
yeah.
dominic piscopo (15:46.316)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (16:02.698)
apert was a naturally disruptive firm. that’s one of the reasons why we’ve been able to grow so fast is challenging those things in a bunch of different ways. so from that perspective, i just, i fit into that culture that our 31 fundamentals kind of describe and define of, hey, it’s okay to challenge things. it’s also okay when you challenge it to get the answer of the way we’re doing it probably is the best way. all right, great. that’s awesome. i’m glad we asked the question. now we know we can move on to the next thing.
dominic piscopo (16:09.42)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (16:29.55)
and how’s that culture like get retained while you’re growing that fast? because that’s that’s a big thing, right? it’s like dilution of culture is more people more capital, more resources come in. like what what’s being done to keep that strong?
mike maksymiw (16:44.716)
so i think a big part of it is there’s, typically a leader that is, i’ll call it a science to each of the and a transactions. you know, it might be another partner that checks in with the managing partner at those firms sits in on the first couple of scheduling calls or all team meetings. and we start each of our meetings with the fundamental of the week. this one happens to be embraced change very appropriate for our conversation. so as an example with when we acquired the ps plus team over the first meeting i was on.
dominic piscopo (17:07.916)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (17:14.318)
i was like, hey, we got to start the meeting with the fundamental of the week. and like, oh yeah, that’s the thing that we do. i was like, yes, it’s a thing that we do. we do it every meeting and we’re not going to skip over it. and here’s the fundamental and who’s brave enough to share a story about this fundamental having never done it before. like you’re among friends, you all know each other already. i’m the new one on the call. so how does this, you know, what’s a story you have about this fundamental? and then three people started sharing stories. i was like, this is fantastic. y’all get it. we’re going do this every time we have a meeting.
and after you do it two or three times, then becomes the natural thing that the new team starts doing. and then once they get through all 31 fundamentals, we do them again. so we get through them like almost twice a year. and that’s how we really reinforce that the fundamentals are the driver of the culture and people are sharing their own stories on every meeting every week.
dominic piscopo (17:49.614)
yeah.
dominic piscopo (18:07.362)
that’s cool. yeah, so it’s just like a constant reminder of it while not being too heavy, right? like, it’s just kind of like a one off, like, hey, let’s, let’s take a couple minutes to do this. interesting. and is that happening from wide like our like, you know, is like a senior and a senior manager meeting at the firm talking about that? or, or is it kind of more leadership doing that?
mike maksymiw (18:30.766)
it’s whoever might be on that particular call. there’s, if there’s three or more people on the call, we do it. if on our integration team, if our, if saul is the tax manager who’s on the integration team and she’s helping out the tax team with something, you know, she’ll start the meeting off with, right, this week’s fundamentals of brace change. and that’s kind of what we’re doing here, right? you had to switch from your old software to the one that we’re doing. we’re embracing that change. there’s a lot of things that might be similar from one to the other. and it’s just where they put the buttons. so like.
dominic piscopo (18:59.214)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (19:00.854)
let me help you go do that. so what’s way that you’ve embraced change this week? so like even on smaller group meetings, if we have one more person on this call, we’d be doing it.
dominic piscopo (19:10.71)
okay, interesting. huh, i like that. it’s cool. i think it’s it’s really easy to like at a certain point, like, you know, that old thing, we’re not going to do it. but it’s i think it’s good to have people who are like all in on it and enthusiastic like you to kind of like, maintain that culture, right? so and something’s working, right? like the job satisfaction numbers are good. and so i mean, from a completely external third party,
mike maksymiw (19:16.088)
think it’s…
dominic piscopo (19:39.234)
something’s working. so that’s great. one of the kind of big meaty topics i want to get into is your, your session at bridging the gap. so, you know, you shouldn’t pick favorites, but it was my favorite session. i told you after i loved it. i have felt some similar elements to that in the past in my career. and so let’s get into the session a little bit. and then i have a couple of questions on it. i guess like framing wise, was.
mike maksymiw (19:42.732)
one of the kind of big.
mike maksymiw (19:46.51)
session.
mike maksymiw (20:02.102)
and so let’s get into this session.
i guess like framing wise, it was named why i left each job.
dominic piscopo (20:09.088)
it was named why i left each job that i have left and what could have been done to retain me, right?
mike maksymiw (20:17.401)
yeah, journey to partner why i quit and what you could have done to keep me
dominic piscopo (20:19.426)
there we go. yeah, there we go. close enough. yeah, so can you kind of walk us through some of the content that was covered there?
mike maksymiw (20:29.176)
sure, so i worked at three different local accounting firms, and then we merged the third one into a national firm, not aprio. so i’ve left three different jobs intentionally. and at each of the jobs, something was happening there that i didn’t agree with, or my career was being stifled in a way that i didn’t see it in the way that i wanted to grow the same way that they saw it. and i was vocal at each firm of what i wanted.
so my big thing is no surprises. so if i think that i’m worth more money than i’m being paid, i’m going to try to show you how i could do that. i didn’t have the resources of big four transparency way back then. so i actually built a spreadsheet of how the partners could make the same amount of money and i could make more money too. because i was very efficient at my jobs and that wasn’t really rewarded. i was rewarded with more work, but not more money.
dominic piscopo (21:23.117)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (21:27.438)
i told them what i thought it was worth and what i wanted to do. and they said, no. and i was like, okay. and they’re like, all right. and i was like, no, you don’t understand. okay. is not acquiescence. okay. is i’m now looking and here’s the letter of resignation. and then i got shocked. pikachu face. i was like, i don’t understand why you’re surprised. like i told you what i wanted and you didn’t do your job of provide it to me when i thought i was worth it. um, or a different place when i got, uh, scolded during.
dominic piscopo (21:39.085)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (21:42.776)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (21:56.942)
an annual review for something that happened two weeks before. and that was the entire review. because a partner got, you know, lit up by a client and then decided that i need to go get lit up too. i was like, this should have been a conversation in your office, not my annual review. i was like, and this is how you’re going to act. do i want to be a partner with you? do i want to get business married to you? and i was like, no, i don’t. and i told them what i wanted to do in the in the name of leadership and whatnot. and they said no. and i was like, ok. and again.
shocked pikachu face and i was like, i don’t understand why you’re surprised. and then the last one was when i worked seven years at philomino, the local firm, and i really enjoyed there. so i actually like at this point in the presentation, i said, this is why i stayed. right? when i said things like i wanted to be a leader at the firm, they helped me with coaching on how to be a better leader. the things that were currently holding me back a few of the changes i had to make some work i had to put in and they supported me in that work.
dominic piscopo (22:30.913)
no.
mike maksymiw (22:56.076)
they helped me get from manager to partner because i told them that’s what i wanted to do. so i told them what i wanted. they said, we agree. let’s go. and that was fantastic. and it’ll be merged into markham. and i tried to do the same thing, right? i was one of our cares act leaders. i was like, cool. i just demonstrated a leadership skillset in this new environment. i showed them that i have this skillset and this is what i really want to do here. and they said, no, it be a tax line partner again. and i said, no.
and then they were surprised when i left. i was, i don’t still don’t understand why they’re surprised when i said, i want x and you said, no.
dominic piscopo (23:34.22)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (23:35.726)
so that’s like the three minute rundown of an hour long presentation.
dominic piscopo (23:40.514)
yeah, no, i mean, good job summarizing it. i’m actually i’m very impressed by that. and you use the term for this you taught you mentioned it as a coddiwomple that was like the framing of the whole thing. so what was the definition of coddiwomple again?
mike maksymiw (23:54.262)
it’s a purposeful journey to an unknown destination.
dominic piscopo (23:57.58)
right? yeah. and so i really enjoyed that framing as like, you know, even even on the backdrop of my own experience in accounting, some other jobs too, but accounting, where it was like, man, like, you could be more successful here if you kind of just, you know, ate some of the shit or, you know, kept your head down a little bit or, you know, did whatever.
mike maksymiw (23:59.586)
so
dominic piscopo (24:23.648)
and that is maybe true with regards to i could be more successful in the traditional sense of receiving praise in the job. but then at the same time, what i really enjoyed about that presentation was the acknowledgement of like, that might not be my success, right? my success is if i speak about what i am interested in and want to do and who i am as a person, and i can find something that fits that rather than necessarily and
mike maksymiw (24:32.142)
same time.
mike maksymiw (24:47.79)
and i can find something like this.
and you know, you need to still grow as a person. and there are things that i’m like, this is me.
dominic piscopo (24:52.61)
you know, you need to still grow as a person. and there are things that i’m like, this is me. but like, i should probably learn to grow past but like, there are some things too, that are like, this is my essence. and this could be like my superpower or what sets me apart or whatever, that can kind of just get stomped out, right. and and what i really liked was kind of the refusal of to just do that and acknowledge because i want to go make more money. it was that you actually really truly held out for something that was for you, right.
mike maksymiw (24:59.448)
like there are some things too that are like, this is my essence and this could be.
mike maksymiw (25:07.062)
and kind of just get stopped at it. what i really like to
mike maksymiw (25:16.45)
it was that you actually really truly helped out.
mike maksymiw (25:22.018)
yeah, interesting. i was, when i quit being a partner at markham, i didn’t have a job lined up when that was intentional. i’ve been working for 19 straight years, you know, doing the grind of the traditional accounting career. and i was tired. like burnt out might be a word you could use, although i was excited about what i was going to do next. i was more frustrated that people kept telling me no. and i had a conversation with someone in my network and
he was like, man, i thought you were smart. like you want to go quit a job where you can make a half a million dollars a year being a tax partner so you can make a hundred grand being an admin somewhere. he’s like, i don’t get it. i was like, it’s okay that you don’t get it. i don’t need there to be 10,000 of these jobs. i only need there to be one. i just need one company to believe what i believe in. i just need there to be one job where i can go do this. cause i can’t have 10,000 jobs. so that’s what i’m looking for. the one company that’s
dominic piscopo (26:08.065)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (26:18.798)
a little bit risky, a little bit disruptive, will take a chance on someone who believes in something. and i didn’t even know what job i would get. like i interviewed for five or six different types of jobs that i had never considered because i was just going to be a tax partner. and then my eyes got opened up and i was like, man, i could do a lot of different things. like, so i don’t even know what i’m going to apply for. if the people sound great and the job sounds interesting, i’ll take a look. and i got told no.
dominic piscopo (26:31.171)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (26:45.94)
more times with 20 years of experience since i had no experience coming out of college. every other job was like, i applied and i got it.
dominic piscopo (26:52.206)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (26:55.788)
yeah. yeah. so i mean, the backdrop of you just kind of leaving this great job as a partner, right? a lot of which is having faith in your network and understanding that people were there along the way, right? because i do have a lot of conversations with people. actually, very recently, someone who was like, i’m about to make partner, i actually really don’t think that’s the journey for me, like show me the world.
which was a really cool journey to take with this person. was, was really cool. like being able to like introduce them around and all that. and, part of you being able to kind of just make the bold move of just being like, man, you know what this isn’t for me, i think is the underpinning of you having a fantastic network. right. so like, what did you do to maintain that? and like, what would be like a modern day recommendation for people to, be able to do that?
mike maksymiw (27:40.846)
we’re like, what are you?
mike maksymiw (27:48.174)
um, it’s, it’s really a journey to build a network that’s full of successful, good humans that all have connections in different places. so i, i started by joining an organization, the greater harvard jcs, cause i wanted to get some management skills, learn how to do project management. cause i wasn’t getting that as a staff and senior accountant. i was like, that’s a skill i’m going to need. and i’m looking around the firm going, well, there’s no one for me to manage. so let me go try.
really safe place to go fail miserably at a nonprofit organization. like every time i ran a project, i learned something about what to do better. i learned what not to do. so some of it is being able to take a risk in a safe place. so i started building that network. i got involved with the connecticut society of cpas through a kickball tournament with the young professionals group. i joined that nyp council for three or four years, met a bunch of other people in the state.
dominic piscopo (28:22.99)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (28:41.672)
i ended up going through aicpa’s leadership academy during that time and met 30 people from around the country that were awesome humans and really successful. and then with that kind of recurring leadership academy, i kept in touch with all the classes after mine. right? every year on linkedin, i’d say, here are the graduates. and i would go through with that post and i click on all of them. i would message them. i’d say, congrats. welcome to the club. like if you need anything, let me know. you know, i’ve been around a couple of years.
and i’ve made some really good friends now that i go see at the conferences from future classes. i travel around the country for my job and there’s one of the alumni in every city i go to. and i’ll ping them like, i’m to be in town. you want to grab dinner or a drink or coffee in the morning before i go visit the firm.
it’s, it’s work to keep the network going, but it’s not hard work because you want to go see these people. it’s just like, oh, hey, i’m going to go be somewhere. do i know anybody there and reach out to them? and if you’re not going to actually travel, like, i don’t know, pick a random thursday on linkedin and just message five of your friends in your network and be like, hey, i was thinking of you because this thing happened in my week and it reminded me of you. just so that you’re, you’re on their mind. and a lot of it is starting out with like, how can i help you?
dominic piscopo (29:50.914)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (29:58.338)
yeah. yeah. no, i really like that. and like to dig even deeper to this kind of process, like beyond just the network, like, because because that’s the enabler of all this. that’s like what makes this possible and not a terrible idea. right. like, because if you had just left and you knew nobody, it’d be like, mike, what have you done? right. but at the same time, there’s something internal there, too. right. like, because a lot of people would just probably sit with that.
mike maksymiw (30:15.95)
you
i agree.
dominic piscopo (30:27.342)
they’re like, you know what, like, i’m not really getting what i wanted out of this job, but like, still a partner, like, i’ll just i’ll sit it out. what’s you know, what’s the next 20 years of my life anyways, which, you know, sarcasm not always carried through a microphone super well. but like, some people actually genuinely are kind of like that, though. they’re like, well, it’s a job. it’s kind of meant to suck, right? so like, what was like the the thing that like got you to just
mike maksymiw (30:40.206)
which, you know, sarcasm not.
mike maksymiw (30:53.984)
like what was like the thing?
dominic piscopo (30:57.588)
not settle for that? like, like, where does that come from?
mike maksymiw (31:00.162)
like, where does that come from? i would say two places. i was relatively successful in my academic career, which gave me the internal knowledge that i can learn things and i’m back in past tests well, which that was important back then. so like, i just had this innate thought that i can go do things. when it came down to being able to leave being a partner, which theoretically is one of the pinnacles of a career.
i actually called up amber setters. i used her as a business coach for nearly a year and she had this fantastic phrase called unexamined fear. and what she made me do was go examine the fear. you know, so if it’s like, well, jobs are inherently meant to suck. she’d be like, do they like that sounds like it’s a fear of yours that a job has to suck. so let’s go examine it. why does it have to like, is it your past experience? have you not had good ones? like did every part of the job suck? and just
dominic piscopo (31:54.915)
mm-hmm.
mike maksymiw (31:56.014)
asking questions to get like deep, deep into the root of what that fear is. and where mine came down to is, man, i really want to be able to put food on the table for my family. and if i’m unemployed for too long, i can’t do that. she goes, okay, well, how much needs run your house? you’re an accountant. go look at your spreadsheet. and i think for me, that number was like $10,000 a month. she was
dominic piscopo (32:10.531)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (32:21.72)
come on, with 20 years of tax experience, you can make 10 grand a month being a contract employee while you’re looking for what you’re, what you really want to do. and with your network, you have enough friends that they would pay you to do that. like, so what are you afraid of? i was like, i guess i shouldn’t really be afraid. right. and that’s one of the first like steps you take out of that, i’ll call it that puddle of fear onto like solid ground of, all right, i don’t really need to be afraid of this thing. and i’ve
dominic piscopo (32:50.242)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (32:50.882)
i’ve used that unexamined fear a lot talking with our firms, with thinking about what i want to go do next. like with this ps plus acquisition, i have no idea what my job title or role is exactly going to be going forward. i’m okay with that ambiguity because i’m not afraid of it. it’s going to be amazing. like we’re going to make it amazing. and it’s okay that i don’t know exactly what it is, but it’s going to be amazing. and that’s the important part.
dominic piscopo (33:17.356)
yeah. yeah. well, and i think that’s like a thought process that’s important for accountants to understand, right? like, so good on amber, we actually started talking a little bit at the at the conference, i’m hoping to have her on and kind of dig deeper into some of that. but like, i had a business coach too, when i was i was looking to leave my job, right? and at the end of the day, it was like, well, what are you afraid of? and i was like, well, you know, i’m on this path, like, probably, you know, whatever.
five, six, seven years from like being a finance director or whatever. and he’s like, okay, and you think that experience running your own company is going to be a negative to that? right? but, but it is really, really easy to kind of like scare ourselves into these things. and i do think some of the stereotypes around like risk aversion and accountants are true, right? like
mike maksymiw (33:59.534)
but it is really really easy to scare ourselves into these things.
dominic piscopo (34:09.292)
i ended up in accounting because i didn’t want to close doors in finance. and so i didn’t want to just do a finance degree because i was like, well, you know, this is gonna, this is going to open more options and i can kind of do most of what i could do with that other thing anyways. and so i think that risk aversion is there. and so having either someone or hearing a conversation, hopefully like this, that challenges some of those, you know, easy pathways to thinking of just like, you know,
mike maksymiw (34:09.774)
i up
mike maksymiw (34:13.774)
wanted to just do a finance degree. so was like, well, you know, this is gonna, this is gonna open more options and i can kind of do most of
mike maksymiw (34:24.75)
so think that risk aversion is there. so having either someone or hearing conversation like this that challenges some of those easy pathways to think about. just like, ah, know, i am on this path. i don’t want to fall behind it. so i’ll just kind of keep doing the thing. i think it isn’t.
dominic piscopo (34:38.03)
i am on this path. don’t want to fall behind it. so like, i’ll just kind of keep doing the thing. i think it is important for people to have like a challenge to that. right. so i mean, shout out to amber for you to like talking talking you through that. absolutely.
mike maksymiw (34:52.678)
yeah, i’ve received a handful of really good pieces of advice over the years. i was at a leadership academy 2.0 type of session before engage one year and one of the phrases that came out was kick the should out of it. like, what should i do? what am i supposed to do? it’s like, who cares? like, what do you want to do? like, this is your life. this is your career. what are you worried about what the outside world thinks of it?
because there could be the people like the one i mentioned who couldn’t understand why i would want to go do something different. but there were a number of people who were like cheering me on and rooting for me like, oh my gosh, this would be amazing if you could do this. listen to the cheerleaders, like don’t listen to the haters. like there’s 8 billion people on the planet. i don’t need all of them to like me or support me. i’ve got the couple hundred that are in my corner and i rely on them.
dominic piscopo (35:35.256)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (35:47.95)
mm hmm. yeah. and then how did you kind of land in that job? i feel like i feel like the presentation maybe kind of like ran out of time. and i was like, yeah, and then i found this thing. and then now i’m doing this. how does that story kind of end for you? because like you said, you were, you were searching for something, but you didn’t exactly know what it was, or like that job didn’t even really exist. so like, how does that kind of story
mike maksymiw (36:02.368)
that you were searching.
mike maksymiw (36:12.724)
so one of my friends who was in my leadership academy class in 2010 was at a map group meeting for the aicpa in north carolina and he had just moved there. my boss lives in north carolina. he was at the same map group. they were acquiring the firm foundation from rsm, which is has turned into the alliance. so john is my boss. goes, hey, jason, my friend, i’m starting this alliance needs someone to run it. who do you know?
like, you know, lot of people, worked at icpa, you were in leadership academy and jason goes, man, when my good friend mike just quit his job being a partner at markham after working at local firms, his whole career, he needs to be the one to run it. like he’d be amazing at it. and i didn’t even know john, i didn’t even know what aprio was. like i live in connecticut. aprio was based in atlanta at the time and hadn’t expanded nationally like it has the last five years. so that’s how i got the first interview. someone on my network knew someone at aprio, a place i’d never heard of starting this new thing.
that they had never done before. they were looking for someone to run it. so like talk about the power over network, like my friend was looking out for me. he was advocating for me in a room that i wasn’t in. and i try to do that a lot for the people in my network. i’m constantly listening for opportunities, especially if know somebody who’s looking for something. and my friend was doing that for me and interviewed with everybody at appria that was in leadership, like the board and richard and john.
dominic piscopo (37:18.594)
mm-hmm.
dominic piscopo (37:26.584)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (37:37.164)
now i’m doing exactly what i should be doing, exactly where i should be doing it.
dominic piscopo (37:40.768)
yeah, i love that. and how do you make it known to your network like at large, right? because i think that’s part of the battle too, is like, some people have great networks, but they’re like, like, it’s embarrassing to be like, i’m looking for something new or whatever. like, what did that look like?
mike maksymiw (37:46.446)
because i think
mike maksymiw (37:57.714)
that was a months long, interaction on our, our leadership academy slack group. there’d be random tuesdays where i would just say, get mad, you know, that’s part of the process is, is you’re going to feel the emotions. so i would just sit there and i’d write like a three page manifesto and i’d be like, all right, i just wrote this. need to get off my chest. like, let me know what you think. and it was about like, this is what it is about the profession. this is what i want to do to go fix it. like, why haven’t we fixed it? we could do so much better. we can do this and that.
i was like, this is the kind of stuff that i want to do. like, so if this is part of a job that you know of that exists, like that’s what i’m looking for. like it was hard to put into words because impact is what i was looking for. how to make the profession better tomorrow than it was yesterday. and i had no idea how to do that. so a lot of it was, was being vulnerable. but with that group of people,
dominic piscopo (38:41.379)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (38:50.486)
you’re allowed and encouraged to be vulnerable because they have a lot of the same mindset. they’re their leaders themselves and they, they have imposter syndrome. they have times where they’re, they’re not feeling like this might be the best decision or they’re second guessing themselves. and it’s a really comfortable, like psychologically safe space that we can just be our authentic selves and say, all right, i’m looking for this thing and i don’t know how to define it.
dominic piscopo (39:19.916)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (39:20.386)
and then some my friends that helped me define it, they’re like, it sounds like looking for this. it sounds like you’re looking for that. and that really helped me mold what i was looking for into something concise. so that when i was talking with someone that was outside of that group, i could have a 32nd elevator speech of here’s what i’m really looking to go do next.
dominic piscopo (39:41.462)
yeah. yeah, no, that’s cool. what’s the name of that group again, specifically, i want to i want to make sure i link it in the in the notes. you mentioned it, but just to
mike maksymiw (39:48.544)
it’s the aicpa leadership academy. yeah, i’m not sure when the applications are due or when the episode will air. but it’s it.
dominic piscopo (39:51.798)
okay. okay, cool.
dominic piscopo (39:59.19)
okay. it’ll be it’ll be a pretty soon airing of the episode. but yeah, i’m gonna i’m gonna make sure i link that in the show notes. and i mean, listen, if they miss it, there’s always next year. and, you know, this sounds like it’s part of a lifelong or career long journey. so it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s like, if you have to wait six months, it’s not the end of the world either. right. so cool, mike, i really appreciate having you on, you know, i tell you this all the time, but i’m like, all the way behind.
mike maksymiw (40:22.638)
really appreciate having you on. i tell you this all the time, but i’m like all the way behind every opinion that you have about the industry.
dominic piscopo (40:28.312)
kind of every opinion that you push about the industry and like everything, you know, every kind of thing you, you look to try to promote change in. i’m, i always find myself on the same side as you for, so, you know, it’s always a pleasure to have you on again. thank you so much for the session. also, i think, i think that was an absolute highlight of bridging the gap, for me and, and just hearing, hearing yourself be like, i’m not the only one and i’ve, i’ve been through this or
mike maksymiw (40:41.294)
it’s always a pleasure to have you on. again, thank
mike maksymiw (40:51.79)
just hearing yourself be like, oh, i’m not the only one and i’ve been through this or i’ve been the square peg in the round hole i think or whatever. then seeing someone in a very desirable position, very happy with what they do, i think means a lot for people to feel a little lost in that front. so, yeah, thank you for all you do for the profession and the people in it. oh, you’re welcome. i got the idea for this session from my teenage daughters actually, because they were
dominic piscopo (40:57.08)
have been the square peg in the round hole at a big four or whatever. then seeing someone in a very, you know, desirable position, very happy with what they do, i think means a lot for people who feel a little lost in that front. and so, yeah, so yeah, thank you for all you do for the profession and the people in it,
mike maksymiw (41:21.55)
they started to see, me as a human kind of after i was a little successful and they didn’t really get to see some of the struggles. and i was having one of those conversations with like, you didn’t know me when i was an 18 year old idiot. like i’ve thought like things that you’re going through and i’ve gone through what you’re going through. so was like, what if i did that for my career, for the people that, you know, find me on linkedin now. and they’re like, ah, man, that’s, that’s a great role. well, what about the first 20 years? like maybe i should share some of that and.
let them know that it’s not like, you just grow up innately successful or it’s inherent in who you are as human. no, it takes work, it takes struggle, it takes falling on your face, it takes a great group of friends. it takes a lot of things, including the support of the family. the number of times that my wife told me, like, just go do it. if it’s for your career, i support you. we’ll figure out the money later. you’ll make enough. i’m not worried about it today.
dominic piscopo (42:06.189)
yeah.
mike maksymiw (42:18.446)
so it’s a lot of great support systems.
dominic piscopo (42:21.634)
yeah. yeah, that’s an underrated thing is like having a great kind of like life partner spouse, like i think, you know, goes a long way as well. because yeah, when i when i left my good stable job, too, people are like, my god, does the missus think about it? and i was like, yeah, she she doesn’t really think about it. she’s like, yeah, that’s cool, man. that’s awesome. go for it. right. so i think that goes a long way as well. so yeah, shout out shout out to them as well. but yeah, thank you so much, mike. i really appreciate it here.