embracing empathy helped build a healthier, more profitable firm with a smaller, stronger team.
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originally published aug. 19, 2025
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the disruptors
with liz farr
after decades in public accounting, years emceeing national conferences, and a long stretch coaching college softball, dawn brolin has learned something most leadership books bury in footnotes: empathy drives performance.
“empathy is, to me, the number one characteristic that a leader should follow,” she told host liz farr in her return to the disruptors. her latest book, the elevation of empathy: leading for the w.i.n., digs into why the accounting profession needs a different kind of leadership—one rooted in awareness, humanity, and intentional care.
more streaming: chang: killing saly, one agent at a time | vanover: 5-star firms don’t bill by the hour | kless: profit is a result. flourishing is the purpose | whitman: build culture on ‘progress,’ not change | shein: no pe? no m&a? no problem | hood and weber: time to rise | proctor: turn dumb ideas into brilliant solutions | carter-gray: how 1 poor review strengthened the firm | hartman: upwork to “40 under 40” in 3 years | telka: transform fear into fuel | woodard: move past reports; deliver results | baker: find true purpose to end burnout | brolin: the w.i.n. leadership formula | gertrudes: how eos & “unreasonable hospitality” reshaped growthlab | vilms: the power of people in a tech-driven world | dickerson: from diagnosis to disruption | kapilovich: treat people like people | martha yasso: from wall street to main street | jackie meyer: tax plans in 90 seconds? believe it | erica goode: build a $200k firm in 15hrs/week |
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accounting firms often reward technical strength or revenue generation with leadership titles. but brolin argues those metrics don’t create leaders; they create what she calls “appointed leaders.”
“you could be appointed a leader because of a skill or the amount of revenue you bring in. that doesn’t mean you are one,” she says.
real leadership, in her view, has less to do with credentials and more to do with emotional intelligence, personal responsibility, and daily behaviors that elevate the people around you.
brolin doesn’t buy into the myth of the “natural leader.”
“i think everyone’s born with a kind heart,” she says. “life may beat some people up, and then they use that as an excuse to not be empathetic. but everybody can change their mindset and be who they want to be.”
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leadership, she insists, is a choice made again and again—especially when it’s hard.
brolin’s signature leadership principle comes from her years coaching softball: w.i.n.—what’s important now.
for her players, that meant grounding themselves in the present moment.
“we teach them, ‘be where your feet are,’” she says.
for accountants, it means slowing down and choosing the right response instead of the fastest one—especially in pressure-filled situations like difficult conversations, client complaints, or team conflict.
it’s a reminder to shift from automatic reaction to thoughtful intention:
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what matters in this moment?
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what does this person need from me?
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what outcome do i want to create?
whether she’s responding to a client email or talking with her daughter, the w.i.n. formula keeps her focused: “what emily is feeling is the priority. what she needs from me as her mother is what’s important now.”
brolin’s own transformation proves empathy isn’t “soft”—it’s strategic.
in a previous partnership, she worked with six people and generated around $400,000 in revenue. the culture was rigid, unsupportive, and inefficient.
today, her firm, powerful accounting, brings in roughly $700,000, with the equivalent of two and a half people.
how?
by building a culture where people feel respected, trusted, and supported.
her firm operates with no set pto rules, flexible schedules, and an emphasis on outcomes—not hours. “the culture you create, and the empathy and intentional care and concern for the people around you, will help you create that culture, and you will have a successful firm,” she says.
for brolin, empathy only matters if it becomes visible action. “be that leader who shows people empathy, not just talks about it,” she urges. “showing it and talking are two different things.”
and she hopes more accounting firms will take up the challenge.
13 key takeaways
- empathy is a power skill, not a soft skill.
- empathy improves with practice and repetition.
- leaders can turn painful experiences into strength and compassion.
- culture starts at the top—if leadership doesn’t care, no one else will.
- small gestures, like remembering a birthday, can reshape relationships.
- check in with team members regularly to ensure they’re in the right role.
- teams that feel valued work better and produce stronger results.
- kindness is increasingly rare—and incredibly powerful.
- “filling your joy tank” by giving and receiving joy reinforces empathetic behaviors.
- lead mindfully: assume others may be struggling in ways you can’t see.
- listen fully—put the phone away and give others your full attention.
- pay attention to body language, tone, and non-verbal cues.
- be willing to show vulnerability; your team will follow your lead.
more about dawn brolin, cpa, cfe
dawn brolin is the designated motivator for accounting professionals and the ceo of powerful accounting, inc. for more than two decades, brolin has been a well-known and respected educator and motivator for her clients, other accounting professionals, and technology solution providers. she is renowned for innovative collaborations within the accounting profession, particularly with her technology ecosystem partners featured in her team brolin starting lineup. brolin is a member of the intuit tax council, the adp advisory board, and the avalara quickbooks advisory board. she is also the president of the accounting cornerstone foundation, an organization dedicated to supporting accountants and bookkeepers in advancing their careers through in-person events. her career is marked by numerous accolades, including being recognized as a 2024 top presenter by cpaacademy.org, one of the top 50 women in accounting for 2024 by ignition, and insightful accountant’s 2020 top niche practice proadvisor: forensics. additionally, brolin has been honored as one of accounting today’s 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023 “top 100 most influential people in accounting.”
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
liz farr
welcome to accounting disruptor conversations, i’m your host. liz farr from 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间, and today we have a special treat. it’s an encore appearance by one of my dear friends, dawn brolin. now dawn brolin, in case any of you don’t know her, have not heard of her yet. she is the ceo and founder of the designated motivator for accounting professionals. she is ceo and founder of powerful accounting. she is president of the accounting cornerstone foundation, author of the designated motivator for accounting professionals and the elevation of empathy: leading for the win. welcome to the show, dawn.
dawn brolin
thank you, liz, so much for having me. anytime you ask. i love to just get on here and chat with you and hopefully inspire and motivate even just one person, right and to make this world a better place then we’re doing our jobs. liz, yeah,
liz farr
just one person at a time, if we can get that one person to act just a little kinder, a little more empathetically then that one person can ripple out and hit the whole world. well, thank you so much. dawn. i’ve known you for long. yeah, yeah, yeah. now, now, you just released a new book, the elevation of empathy: leading for the win. now. now, how did this book come about?
dawn brolin
you know it and liz, i i think of you as one extreme example of an empathetic person. you know, i’ve written three books so far. so the designated motivator was the first book i wrote, about when i was a volunteer coaching college softball, and what happened that first year. and you know, the impact of someone who, you know, acknowledges and intent, intently, shows compassion and drive to help other people meet their maximum potential. and that was a book that i lived the book, and then i wrote the book. so then i wrote the designated motivator for accounting professionals. because my passion around helping college student athletes reach their highest potential, i decided i wanted to help other firm owners do the same do the do the same thing, but in the area, in the industry of accounting, and because of the coaching, i had to really streamline my practice in order for me to be able to take three, four hours a day, sometimes a week away from the office during tax season. so those were a couple of things. so this one happened to come about from some examples through my career of 26 years in accounting, through my experiences in volunteer coaching, experiencing being around people who are appointed leaders and not necessarily, well, they’re appointed a position, and then they they maybe don’t show the best leadership qualities, and it can severely impact a person in such a negative way. is like the opposite of what i try to do. and so i felt like empathy is such a big part it should be a big part of our lives, and a part of those of us who are out leading other people, that empathy is, to me, the number one characteristic that a leader should follow. so i say, you know what? i’m going to write this book, and i’m going to give some examples, and i’m going to hopefully help people who are in positions of leadership that may be appointed, but they may not behaving, be behaving in that way. so hoping because we can all change, that’s the great part. so i wrote the book because i feel like if people can recognize in the moments where they’re not empathetic in their decision making and that they’re, you know, kind of just out there making decisions and not really putting any care or concern into the impact their decision made on other people. and how can i help just bring some awareness to that, and maybe have people take some inner looks into themselves. i do it on a daily basis. you know, in every interaction that not every single one, because i’d be exhausting, but a lot of the interactions i have and i acknowledge in scenarios where i have failed and i and i recognize it, and i apologize, i and then i take action on making sure, you know, my goal is to never do that again, and and so, but it’s still awareness, and no one’s no one’s perfect at it, but we got to raise awareness.
liz farr
absolutely i agree. and you know, i gotta say that most of the leaders that i met in accounting perfect in the firms i worked at, very. few of them really had much empathy. yeah, they, they just really didn’t, you know, and and they would have certainly benefited from this book, yeah, and
dawn brolin
that’s what i’m hoping is. and again, i mean, it doesn’t mean that people are bad people. it’s not meaning that at all. it just means that when you’re in a leadership position, you’re automatically looked at as a leader, but do you actually perform and behave like you are one? and that’s just kind of, i’m just really passionate about being kind to people, and i think, you know, that’s something a lot of people want, kindness. i don’t see a lot of it these days. i don’t see a lot of kindness going on. i see a lot of anger, a lot of combative people who claim like, hey, you know, love thy neighbor. and yet, the next sentence says, well, this, this and this. it’s like, wait a minute, you just said the opposite of what you said in the first sentence. i don’t know what you’re where you’re getting at, so i just, i just have so much passion about people, caring about people,
liz farr
yeah, right now, one thing that you say multiple times in this book is that leaders are not born. leaders are bred. i want you to dive into that?
dawn brolin
yeah, you know, i think a lot about that. it’s one of the scenarios that i it’s a kind of a funny, little funny thing about, hey, when people are, like, in fifth grade and or enough five years old, and they’re in first grade or in kindergarten, and they’re they’re graduating, and you can see it all over tiktok, they’re graduating, and it’s so cute to watch the kids come across stage. and we never did that kind of thing. but anyway, so they’re like, oh, look at michael. michael wants to be a gas station attendant, like, you know, because they just don’t have, you know, five years old, they’re just like, let’s go. michael, right? it’s so cute. but you don’t see anyone saying, when i grow up, i want to be a leader, right? so no, you know, a leader, a leader develops the characteristics around that, around, you know, being a leader and understanding people and how to make decisions. and you know, you know, weighing the the good and the bad, and like, where which way are we teetering and who’s it going to affect? those types of things are learned, usually through experience, right? most of the time it’s through experience. i think everyone’s born with a kind heart. i think that a lot of times life may beat some people up and and then they use that as an excuse to not be empathetic, which that’s just an excuse. because everybody can change their mindset and be who they want to be. you have every right to do that. so, you know, i don’t believe people are born leaders. i think people are developed into leaders over time. some pick it up quicker than others, right? so, but i think i really believe that through life, things happen, and you either learn from them and do good, or you learn from them and do bad. and so that’s why i believe you’re not born a leader. you will develop into a leader based on your experiences and your decision making on those experiences and how you handle them.
liz farr
exactly. yeah, and you know, in accounting, we tend to just promote people into leadership based on technical ability, which is a stupid approach, because you know, now you’re taking somebody out of their zone of genius when they are really good, doing that technical work, and throwing them into a position where you have completely different skills needed.
dawn brolin
yeah, a lot of those are social skills too. like, are you, you know, there’s some people it’s like, okay, i want to be a partner, so i’ve got to work this many years in order to do it, i got to do this much in billing, or whatever they set for those milestones in order for you to get promoted, like, at least, that’s been, like, historical, and yet that person may be, like, you said, be amazing at international tax, and you know, they’re bringing in a half a million dollars in revenue. oh, they deserve to be partner, but yet they don’t do a really great job of communicating with their coworkers, just in general. and that that’s got to be part of it, because as a as a leader, you’re going to make decisions as a leader that will affect everybody around you. it affects yourself, but it affects all these people around you, and without the empathy portion of it, those that decision making can be skewed, and so, you know, we need to take that into consideration as we’re considering but that’s that’s why my whole point is you could be appointed a leader because of a skill or amount of revenue you bring in. that doesn’t mean you are one
liz farr
exactly, exactly, and i think that your book does a really good job of filling in the blanks of that. thank you. yeah. now, in both this book and in your books, the designated motivator series, you talk about the notion of win, which stands for what’s important now. now, what is this? explain this to listeners.
dawn brolin
yeah, so the win philosophy is, is a great philosophy around people will think, you know, all right, so i know we set goals. we have to set goals, and we set futuristic goals, or we’re like, okay, i want to do i want to double my revenue for 2025 i want to double my revenue for 2026 whatever it may be, and we forget that what we do today is so impactful for those future goals. and we sometimes we get so wrapped up in what we want later, and we don’t pay attention to the things that we need to do today. so in softball, use, of course, is a great example in softball. what’s important now we teach, you know, and i retired from coaching at this point, but i’m coaching firms, as opposed to players in softball. but, you know, we teach them be where your feet are. so you may have, you know, you’re out in the field, your job. what’s important now is for me to play defense. i struck out on this last at bat. that’s not important anymore. you can’t change the fact that you struck out. what’s important now is that you’re playing defense. and it’s like we call it one pitch at a time, so we take things one pitch at a time, and i take that philosophy of what’s important now in practical use within my firm. so i’ll come in in the morning. give you an example. i’ll come in in the morning, and what’s important now for me is not what’s in my email. that’s not what’s important now. what’s important now is what tax returns are ready to start what are the tasks that i need to accomplish that day before i can leave the office. what’s important now for me in order to be able to do something, maybe i want to go golfing this afternoon. maybe i want to go on my boat this afternoon. but what’s important now is i need to get these three or four tasks done. and so the win philosophy works in everything. here’s another great example that you can tie empathy into it. when, if i’m talking to you, liz, and we’re going, we’re talking about maybe a situation, we just, we’re talking a little bit about your cat. your cat is beautiful, 21 years old, and what’s important now was for me to listen to you and hear about your cat and see your cat and not we got to record a podcast, right? because what’s important now means you’re going to be present in the in the situation you’re in. if i’m talking to my daughter, emily is the number one priority. it doesn’t matter what’s going on around me. what’s important now is what emily is feeling, what she needs from me as her mother. that’s what’s important now. and so i just see a lot of times, and this is where empathy is pulled in. if i say, hey, liz, how are you doing today? and liz is like one of the kindest people you will ever meet listeners in your whole entire life. she has empathy tattooed all over her body without you even seeing it. so if i say to you, liz, how are you doing today? and you start talking to me, and now i’m thinking about, oh yeah, i gotta make sure i take this one thing to the post office. oh, i gotta make sure i do this and that instead of being present and listening with intention, then i’m not practicing. what’s important now, is this just kind of a small, simple example, but we tend to be hair on fire, yes, especially in accounting, in our firms and the firm owners that are listening today, the what’s important now philosophy is important in your firm, because there are people that, especially if you’re a leader, people in your firm who need you in certain situations, and that needs to be what’s important now for you, the hair on fire firms. we’ve got to stop the hair on fire. we have to stop the madness. there’s various ways to do that, but we’ve got to be more present and what’s important as we’re moving forward. so that’s it’s just a cool philosophy to think about. you could say to yourself, i want to win. it was funny, because when we used to do that, 123, win, people were thinking, we want to win the game, although the winning the game is just a consequent, consequence of what’s important. now, if you follow the methodology, you’re going to win, right? so, yes, so that’s what, you know, that’s the philosophy that i try to follow in all the things that i do. i’m not perfect at it, but i really try,
liz farr
right? you know? and, and what’s important now, you know, that reminds me of somebody said the present is, is a gift. that’s why it’s called the present. present
dawn brolin
you are so liz, that’s great one that’s and it is so true, because you don’t know what the next moment, and i say moment, not in the next minute or the next whatever it’s moment like moment is even faster than that, faster than the click of your fingers. and we don’t know what the next moment is going to offer us, and we have to become more present, because it is a gift. i love that. yeah,
liz farr
and, you know, one of the things that can happen in the next moment is betrayal, which is something you talk about in your book, and about how damaging that can be oh and and the passage that really resonated with me in your book was about making meaning from past hurt, you wrote, while betrayal can be heartbreaking and very difficult, it can also be a door into a way of being in the world that is better than before. talk about betrayal a little bit and how important that is.
dawn brolin
yeah, you know a part of that is trust. so when you are following a leader, again, could be an appointed leader or somebody who really is resonating with the characteristics, typically people who are resonating with the characteristics of being a leader, and my biggest one is empathy. we’re trusting that this leader is taking us down the right path, and that the what, what we are following, is the right thing to follow. and when that, when that trust is broken, and that scenario with whoever that may be that is leading it is to me, it’s it’s betrayal. i’m trusting you. i’m believing in what you’re i’m eating what you’re feeding me. i’m drinking the kool aid. i’m doing all the things that may because if it’s taking you down the wrong path, it becomes a betrayal of that trust, loyalty, and all of those other things that a leader will, you know, develop and cultivate with you, but then when they take the wrong turn, it’s a betrayal, and it hurts. and for those leaders who have like and i’ve done that to people, i’ve betrayed people before i’ve promised something and didn’t deliver it or whatever. i think we know. i don’t think anyone’s exempt. so when that happens, though, that’s where the learning and the new day says, wait a minute, i wasn’t living in what i’ll consider the truth. i was living in a scenario where i was trusting a leader to take me down the right path, and they took me down a very dark and narrow path that but when you’re in that dark and narrow path now you’ve got to get out of that. my and my daughter emily actually wrote a song called eye of the storm. and so this, i thought she wrote it for me because of a scenario that i went through. she wrote it for herself, but boy, did it resonate with me from the scenario that i was in, because when you’re in the middle of the storm, and the storm is the betrayal, and you’re sitting in the middle of that storm, it is very hard, very hard to get yourself out of the storm and into this new way of living. it’s a new way of living, because now you’re not you’re away from that, that those poor characters, that leader who has let you down. and so, you know, when you’re in that storm, it’s hard to see that you’ll get out of it, you’re going to be okay. and i do put some tools in there that i’ve used, you know, and i did put some tools in the book, and i they were just my tools. it’s what i use. and you know, hopefully those, those tools, will help other people if they’re in an eye of a storm of sun, and it doesn’t, and it’s, it’s a place i never thought i would be, and i think that’s part of why the betrayal is so significant. because i thought we were like, we are crushing this, like we are on this, we’re in this together. we’re going to do it, and then the betrayal happens. so i found betrayal to be something i never realized how painful that is for the person on the receiving end.
liz farr
yes, yes. and how do you how do you move out of that? i mean, what if you need to retain some kind of relationship with that person who’s betrayed you.
dawn brolin
that’s hard. yeah, that’s probably the hardest of all. so in the few of the scenarios that i that i have in my brain, of those betrayals, i was away from, i was done by done, i break in ties. i’m going to get away and then, but after that is when you know you’re right, the people who have to stay in those scenarios. and that’s a decision you have to make, right? and again, one, one thing that i do want to make sure everybody knows, this is not medical advice. this is not, i’m not. doctor liz isn’t a doctor that i’m aware of. we’re just giving some some concepts of life and leadership that i have found. it’s more of a of an inter interflection of myself. like to look back into my own self on how i’ve handled things, where i possibly have betrayed people, and i act on those things when i since, since i wrote this book, i really have reflected and taken very big account of my own self, and so i try to be really on point with that, but the betrayal is really tough when you have to stay in it. and i don’t believe anyone really has to stay in it. i think everyone has the ability to get away from it, but you learn from it, and you and you, you start to be able to recognize scenarios where i might be going down that path again, with in another situation. so you want to learn from it and try to stay, you know, try to avoid it, or maybe help the person who is doing the betraying, and help them see that person though. liz, that’s up to that person has to make the decision they want to. they have to want to change.
liz farr
yes, yes. and i, i think that using empathy would be, you know, reminding that person of empathy would be extremely powerful, yeah, to terminate the behavior or help them see it from a different point of view.
dawn brolin
yeah, absolutely for sure.
liz farr
yes. now, what are the traits of empathetic leaders?
dawn brolin
yeah, so interesting. how we think about how you want to how to build empathy right in what you’re doing so, and this happens to be an area that i find to be, again, part of how you’re reflecting upon yourself, but certainly practicing mindfulness is really important. so being mindful of the decisions you’re making, mindful of the way you’re talking to someone, mindful of the way you’re responding to an email, those types of things mindfulness, and you have to practice that. that’s not something you’re just like, oh, okay, i got this email from a client, and they maybe, you know, didn’t, they weren’t very kind on the email. when you build in empathy, and being mindful of the empathy is, wait a minute, i’m not even going to respond to that email. i’m going to call them, because something’s off for them, you know. and it may be a scenario where they’re not, you know, these are people who are not repeat offenders. they’re not the people who rip you off, you know, nasty grams every time something happens. though that’s a whole different ball game, but we’re talking about somebody who’s like, you’re just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. i’ve never heard this tone from this person, or a scenario where i have a client, as a matter of fact, liz, who emailed me today and she was freaking out over a notice from the state, and she’s getting divorced, so i know she’s not in a great space mentally. so i will be calling her after we’re done, and i’m going to call her and just be like, hey, i just want to give you a call. let you know i already know what’s going on with this. you know, you told me you had 5000 in estimated payments, you only had 1500. let me show you kind of what we did. but this is all you gotta do. let’s get you into a payment plan, whatever it may be. normally, historically, there have been times i think we’ve all done it where it’s like, are you kidding me? like, don’t you know, don’t you know when you made your own estimated payments. like, it’s like, i’m not now, i’m being a babysitter, like, are you kidding me? but i know the scenario she’s in, and i’m practicing that’s a that’s a conscious practice mindfulness of i know this woman’s getting divorced, and i know that this isn’t always her wheelhouse. she needs me to explain this to her, because i bet you she’s having a sleepless night tonight, if i don’t do that, yeah, and that’s practicing mindfulness, being curious about other people’s experiences, like knowing, you know, being able to think about, hey, you know, how, how is hey, amy, how is everything going? and we’re going to answer the tax problems. we’ll answer that. but how are you doing? like, i’m curious about how they are, what what they’re going through again, and then listening with full attention is another piece, right? and other tools like listening with that full attention that you maybe don’t normally do, it’s practicing. it’s hard. it’s just like, you know, okay, we’ll talk about caitlin clark, because why not? maybe we can get some comments about that, right? but caitlin clark, i don’t care what you say. that kid can hit a shot from anywhere now, do you think that she just walked on to a college court and just started sinking three pointers? no, that kid’s been practicing basketball since she was probably able to walk. yeah, mindfulness is the same thing, listening with full attention. takes practice because we are so distracted. so a tool for that building the empathy. that’s another piece of how you can build that empathy up. this is a great one, paying attention to non verbal cues. yes, that’s a really good one. you can tell if people are distracted very here’s a really great example. liz, oh, yeah. liz, that’s great, man. such a good question. do you know any i’m on my phone? oh, really. liz, oh, that’s cool, yeah. oh, really, okay, that’s not paying attention. yeah, yeah, looking someone in the eye with with intentional listening skills is a practice. it’s not something as a matter of fact, i think we used to be really good at at least, i know i liz, you and i are both about the same age. we didn’t have phones back in the day. it’s a lot easier to pay attention because you had nothing else to do. so and then, and then practicing not having a bias, but when you first start talking to someone, being able to say, you know what, what you think you know and what you know might be two different things. so practicing that piece of it too. and a lot of people don’t. a lot of people make assumptions. so asking questions without making assumptions. just ask the question. don’t make an assumption that liz isn’t having a good day. hey, how are you doing today? oh, hey, i’m doing really good. all right. so the email was something else happened, whatever. but we go into it assuming something’s wrong, right? so trying to work on that, asking for feedback. you know, those types of things are what those tools of empathy, and they sound really weird, but they’re they really are effective in really getting to the root of whatever it is you’re discussing and and taking the empathy into play.
liz farr
yeah, yeah. one of the other people that i had on, i’ve had them on the podcast, but i interviewed him for a book i wrote. said that whenever he does his one on ones with his team members, he always asks at some point, how are you really? how are you really? and with that question, what he wants is not just, oh, i’m doing good. he wants to know, how’s your mom? i heard your mom was in the hospital. how’s your dog, how’s your kid? is the you know, he wants to know what is going on in that person’s life, and not just the superficial. oh, how are you? oh, everything’s great. okay, let’s get to the bulk of our conversation that we have to have.
dawn brolin
and you know, liz, that’s so interesting to say that, because if you think about leaders in leadership roles and having that ability to really care when you’re a leader and truly are with the empathy and all that. here’s one thing that i work on really, really hard. i’m not good at it at all, and i’m really trying. leaders don’t want to be don’t want to show their vulnerability. nope, they do not want you to know if things are not great. they don’t they want you to think everything’s hunky dory, you know? and, and i did a well, you were there at bridging the gap. i did a panel with nancy and hector at at bridging the gap last year. and that was hard to you know? she, she was like, god, because we had a couple good meetings prior to us doing the panel. she’s like, guys, you got to be vulnerable. you got to let it out. you got to, like, let people know that you’re not this super woman, that everyone thinks your life is perfect, because it’s not. and you’re right. it’s so true. so asking those questions, and the hardest part. liz, i guess my point is that is it’s the other the person receiving the question has to be ready to be vulnerable and and i think that’s where we struggle the most. and if a leader is not empathetic and sincere in that question, because when you ask that, liz, you had a different tone when you ask that question, like, how are you for real? it’s different than, hey, how are you two very different questions asking kind of the same thing,
liz farr
just different, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, i had a co worker for many years, who you know. every time i saw her in the morning, i would say, so, how are you? and every morning it was the same response, terrible, terrible. and i ran into her a couple of years she moved away her. her husband passed away. she married a new, wonderful man, and i asked her, so how are you? you know, used to always say, you were terrible. how are you now? and she just kind of sat back and said, i’m really good now. i’m not terrible and it was just the change in her situation, from being in a situation that just wasn’t supportive to her to a new situation.
dawn brolin
yeah, and it’s interesting too, because again, and we’re talking about leaders here, where, if you’re asking, how are you, or another great question is, what can we do here to help you? help help you feel better, be better like or do we have you? and i say this to a lot of firm owners, do you have people in the right position, like you were saying somebody who’s a great technical person, you know, maybe they’re doing international tax it’s like, hey, what would you think about if we moved you here and that person going, oh, no, no, no, no, no. that’s not my wheelhouse, and you put them there anyway, because that’s what you think you need. that’s not what that person needs. and so i like to ask, well, you know, when i had a larger firms like, do we i’d never asked them, do i have you in the right position? i hired you for this position, but then i moved you over here. no dawn. actually, i hate that. i don’t. i don’t at all want to talk to clients. i just want to do the bookkeeping. and i was a bad leader. i was a bad leader. i never, i never thought of that. and and it’s just, it’s just so important, again, it’s a piece of empathy every little bit you got to really care about what, what’s going on with that person. and if you’re a person who doesn’t care what other people think, and i don’t care if they’re happy or not, i’m paying them. they need to do what they gotta do, i don’t care. that’s a terrible leader. terrible
liz farr
leaders, yes, yeah. and empathy really helps with what’s important now.
dawn brolin
absolutely it really does. yes.
liz farr
now we’ve talked about, you know, why it’s important to be an empathetic leader, but what are the benefits to the team? i mean, i mean, dawn you’re, you’re talking all this, all this, all this fuzzy, warm and fuzzy, new agey stuff. do i really need to do that to be a powerful leader? do i really need to do that? what? what will it benefit me if i do that?
dawn brolin
yeah, well, number one, it has to be a genuine like. it has to be genuine. you can’t, you know, you can’t fake empathy. you can’t fake it. so what is the benefits for leaders who actually incorporate these tools and incorporate this mindfulness of empathy, you’re going to find that your organization will work well, really well together. there’s no i in team that we’ve been saying that for years. but if you think about cultivating an environment that actually does, genuinely has empathy and care and concern for the others in on your team, so if you work in an organization of three, 5, 10, 100 that environment and culture and the creating the culture of empathy, that company will be more successful than it could without it. and i know that for a fact, because i recall, in a partnership that i was in, there was a really, you know, i ended up leaving that partnership, and that was one of my betrayal that’s one of my betrayals. and i left the partnership at that time, the culture within the firm was there were two, mostly one, but the other one just followed really bossy person, think she knew everything, didn’t care about anybody’s feelings, and just you’re not, you’re you’re not generating enough income, and so we’re just going to penalize you, and all this just terrible attitude. so that firm was probably doing 400,000 a year in revenue with that culture. so i left there knowing i wasn’t going to repeat that, and it wasn’t going to create a culture like that. so i really worked hard to create a culture of togetherness, empathy, caring that kids. kid, you know, someone’s kid is sick, stay home. don’t even, you don’t even need to come in like, don’t even worry about it. the kids come first and starting to practice that, as opposed to what i experienced in the partnership. now, when i look back and i look now with myself, myself one full time staff accountant and a part time virtual. assistant. so i call it two and a half people. two and a half people doing 700,000 a year in revenue. we don’t have scheduled pto, you take what you need. we don’t have standard work hours. work when you work. just get your work done. i don’t care when you do it. and, oh, you know what you need. and i have to tell my staff accountant to take the week off. i’m like, you need to take a week off. you’re killing me. like, you need to take a week off. go enjoy your kids. like, i know you’re working too much. and i ask her almost every week, how is your workload? what does it look like for you? she was in here yesterday. how you know? where are we at with you? i gotta make sure that you’re that you’re good. i want to make sure you get paid the amount of money you want to get paid. i need to create a business that allows to support what all of our individual goals are. so that whole collaboration, the collaborative effort with two and a half people in that firm, we had up to six people, six employees, doing a half a million. i’m doing 700,000 with two and a half people. and i don’t do that to brag. liz, i do that to say that. i say that to say that the culture that you create, and the empathy and and intentional care and concern for the people around you will help you create that culture, and you will have a successful firm. obviously, there’s other things that go with it, but if you want a team that can win a national championship, you gotta bring that team together, and you have to show empathy, and you have to show support of each other. you have to teach the team how to be supportive and empathetic for each other as well. and if you’re not practicing that at the top, and you’re trying to, you’re trying to tell them to do it and you’re not doing it. i know they talk about tone at the top. we’ve been talking about that for forever as well, but empathy is a critical component of that. tone at the top, if you don’t care, they’re not going to care, period. and so, you know, i mean, i don’t know about you. liz, but if i’m in an office environment and i walk in the door and someone says, you’re wearing that outfit, again, that’s not really empathetic. no, maybe i can’t afford another outfit. maybe i don’t know, whatever the case may be, when i walk into an office and, oh man, i love that out. i love that shirt. i don’t remember you wearing that shirt. oh, yeah, we’re like, last week. i wear it every week. i just never really noticed, but i really like that on you. looks great, goes with your hair or whatever. that’s those. i call them silly examples, but they are examples of the way you talk to people, the way you treat people, is going to be a direct correlation with the success of your company, in my opinion. again, dawn brolin opinion, yeah, just based on experience,
liz farr
yeah, yeah. well, you know, taking dawn brolin example, i can say there are a lot of benefits. i would say, you know, the benefit of empathy is not just on your team and being them, being willing to do the work, but that spills way over into your clients, because, because you’re when you treat your clients with that much camp compassion and empathy, then they don’t care how much it costs, they will pay you whatever you want because you are giving them exactly what they need,
dawn brolin
right? and, you know, it’s interesting too, because people do think like i think there are people out there that think that empathy is a soft skill. it’s a power tool, in my opinion, you know, you know, i think about what you say, and you’re right, it definitely spills over to your clients and your and you know it, you’ll know it. you know, one of the practices, again, as kind of a silly little i love silly examples because they’re practical. but one of the things we started to do this very year was like, you know what, all the clients that are, in there on our relationship pricing, subscription pricing platform. you know what? i want to recognize their birthday. i want them to know that we think about them on their birthday. and it’s so funny, because i was talking to a friend of mine, actually the other day, and i do her tax return and i and it was her birthday, and she’s a tax and she’s a friend, but i don’t, i mean, she’s an acquaintance, but a friend. i know it was her birthday. i’m like, i didn’t know it was your birthday. she goes, you do my taxes. and i go, you think i memorize everybody’s birthday? how does i do your taxes? i go, you think i know how much money you make? i have no idea. like, i don’t internalize those numbers. what i internalize is you as a person. but we started to send a gift to those people on their birthday. now i will tell you for christmas, i sent them yetis. thank you for trusting us. you know as your trusted accounting buddy and whatever powerful accounting on, and they’re really nice, great. or coffee or tea, and i sent those to all those people. i think one person was like, oh my goodness, bro. and thank you so much for the yetis. i was like, that’s weird. so you think about like, hmm, those are really expensive, not just to get, but to ship them. and then i said, and then we started sending cookies, or if they couldn’t get those, we’d get them an edible arrangement, or something. the responses from the clients for us remembering their birthday and sending them cookies has been unbelievable. thank you. so i get texts. thank you so much for the cookies, for thinking of me on my birthday and the cookies, it’s an example of, it’s a it’s an actual, physical example of empathy. i care enough about you to acknowledge your birthday, and it’s been the most fun thing i’ve done in my business in a very long time. and so i looked on the calendar, i’m like, because we put them in our calendar, so we all know it’s their birthday, and i look forward to see, oh, i know it’s, i know it’s my guy john. my guy john’s birthday is during the week of fourth of july, like so now we actually are being more mindful because we’re practicing. it’s a practice, and recognizing them as people and not just clients. and it’s a step in the right direction, and it’s, it’s been, it’s been eye opening, to be honest, yeah,
liz farr
and, you know, and then that’s something that you can kind of automate, you know, you stick it in your calendar and a couple days a week, 10 days before you you get a notification that you need to think about this, and then it’s kind of a fun thing.
dawn brolin
it’s a little tool, liz to practice empathy for your clients. you know, so again, little examples, but every little bit goes a long way.
liz farr
it does a huge,
dawn brolin
huge, that’s why, with the hair on fire, liz, a lot of firms’ hairs are on fire, and they’re still just trying to catch up. they their systems aren’t to the point where they really should have them where, okay, you know, like we’re historically, you know, three years ago and back we our hair was on fire. well, we’ve stopped that, and we’ve changed the way we work. we’ve changed i was this my big line. we’ve changed our business model to be more intentional with the way we work with our clients and the one and we were very intentional on the ones we wanted to work with, the people who are treating us nicely. we deserve to be treated with empathy as well. yes, and we forget that in the accounting industry. liz, we forget that because we’re people pleasers, and we feel like we’re the ones that gotta save the day all the time, and we’re the ones who are supporting everybody. i mean, covid was, there wasn’t a better example. it was covid because the ppp loans came out, all those things, and who did everyone look to? the accountant? and so, you know, in those situations, of course, we have the most, you know, we have. i don’t say we have. i feel like we have the most empathy, because we’re willing to do whatever it takes to i feel very similar to medical professionals. who are those people? they are the people who are there and ready to go. and i feel like in the financial world, that’s where we land, yep, you know, absolutely, but yeah, the firms will benefit from it. and you’ve, you know, giving empathy puts a lot of goodness in your soul. i feel so good when i’ve sent cookies to somebody and they’re like, thinking, like, i know it meant something to them. and that fills me up. you know, i talk it that i talk about it being the joy, the joy tank. so if you’ve seen monsters inc, and they have the the laugh tank, right? yeah, is that? what do they what do they call it? is it called? i forget the name it’s called, but i call it, you know, the laugh tank where they make the kit that make the kids giggle, and it lit and it like makes it awesome. oh, is the scream tank where it was bad, right? when they make the kids scream, and the tank would fill up. so i look it as like a joy tank. i want to try to fill my joy too, and by being empathetic to other people, when i succeed at it, it fills my tank up with joy. i’m a, i’m a gift giver rather than a gift receiver. i’m not a big gift receiver, but i like, i really like, to give gifts to people.
liz farr
well, you know, by giving gifts, you are benefiting yourself. oh,
dawn brolin
you totally are. yes, absolutely. so, you know, it’s just interesting, because i never really realized. i hadn’t realized till i really reflected about some betrayals that i’ve had and what was. what was the thing that lacked the most in those betrayals? and that’s what it took me a while to come up with that, but once i came up with it, i was like, yeah, it’s empathy. the way they behave, the way they acted, was false and it was misleading, and it was this, and i felt betrayed, but really was because if they had empathy, they would have never they wouldn’t have done that. they would have taken a different approach. because i’m not saying, like, listen, if a partnership doesn’t work out, it doesn’t mean everybody’s bad people. it doesn’t mean people weren’t empathetic. it just didn’t work out for various reasons. but when it’s when it’s based on a lack of empathy, i think it hurts the worst, easier to deal with facts than it is feelings.
liz farr
right? sure is yes, yes, because the facts, you can get your head around why somebody did that, but the feelings
dawn brolin
i and that’s why i talked about the tools. liz, because the tools were, yes, the two tools were critical to me. i’m not a person who necessarily reaches out or, you know, like i said before, is vulnerable enough to tell people the story or to tell anyone else about it, but i’m really good at reflecting on those things, to work on myself, number one and number two, to try to not let myself into those scenarios again. and so one of the couple just give a couple of the tools that worked for me. and again, this is not medical advice or any of that stuff. it’s just how i did it and how i got through it. because i didn’t think i would get some there’s been some stuff in my life that i didn’t think i’d get through. and this one particular situation, i was like, okay, i’m gonna figure this out. i’ve got to get out of this. i don’t know how i’m in the middle of the storm. what am i going to do? the number one thing that i did, the first thing i did, i again, not really aware i was doing it, to be honest. liz, right, but i allowed myself to take some time to to actually deal with it, like i gave myself permission to not work for like, three weeks. wow. and i was like, you know what? i need to take care of me right now. and i don’t know how that’s going to happen, but i know i can’t do the things i’m doing on a daily basis right now and deal with it. so i need to step away for a little bit, let my team handle the accounting side of it. anything it’s accounting folks. three weeks isn’t that big of a deal. take those three weeks to deal with that. i also was very intentional about seeking out. i’ll call them memes, for lack of a better description, but quotes, quotes that helped me recover through and it’s funny because i would go in, i would go online and look for the quotes, and when i would find one that i liked, i would take a picture of it and leave it on my phone. so for like, three months, i have this chronological order of the quotes that resonated at that moment. and if you look, it’s wild to look back and see where the first handful of quotes and what i was focused on there. and then when i was able to really start to come out of the storm down here, what i was reading and what i was looking for were powerful quotes up here, was more like, i’m hurt. i don’t know if i’m going to make it, like all those things. and then when you get to towards the recovery part of it, i was like, oh yeah, i’m picking up. i’m picking up, and i’m gonna, you know my favorite song that i came out of that was, is by, do you know rachel platten? have you heard of her? no, i haven’t. rachel platten, song called fight song. that song, when i was able to see that i can that i’m okay. that song, if you ever rachel platten, called fight song. that thing will fight. that song will fire you up and give like, almost like, give you back the confidence you had before the betrayal. so finding that, and they always do say, when you’re going through something really rough, people know people recognize it, and they they know it, and those people that actually take the time to support you, hey, just checking in like that’s don’t you find those people that you maybe didn’t even know were those people before, and that becomes a relationship with someone that is, you know what? ride or die. will ride or die for some of these people, for those people who have who i and i’m saying that this isn’t to say for people who didn’t reach out because they didn’t know what’s going on. that’s not what i’m talking about. talking about my my people in whatever and them coming through for me, i ride or die for those people. you shoot me a text and say, i need your right now, i don’t care where i am or what i’m doing, i am on my way. and those are some of the great things that come out of it. and your ability to step back up again and be able to say, yeah, you know what? i am a good person. i am doing the best i can. i am always trying to be good to people. and whatever this scenario was that made me look like maybe i wasn’t what just wasn’t the truth. just wasn’t the truth. so just a few things in there, like that, i really, really support the giving yourself permission to step back and take what you need and take the time you need to deal with
liz farr
yeah, yeah. now, is we’re kind of wrapping up. we’re getting close to the the end of the hour. now. what else do you want listeners to know about empathy in leadership?
dawn brolin
what i hope the takeaway is is some, is some that you’d actually take some time to inner reflect on the way you incorporate empathy into your daily life. so are you practicing that empathy reflecting? and it’s okay to actually screw up. it’s okay to to have moments where you’re not empathetic, because we’re human still, and we have moments of a lack of empathy, but think about maybe some of the times that you weren’t empathetic, and then do something about it, you know. and i’ve done that. i’ve done that even as recent as last summer, you know, realizing i didn’t treat a couple people very well, not intentionally. i just was not i wasn’t recognizing my lack of empathy for them, and i reached out and i apologized, and i said, i’m going to do better, but what i want you to know is like you can forgive me or not forgive me. that’s on you and it’s and i’m good either way. i’m not saying i’m sorry to make myself feel better. i’m saying sorry because it’s the right thing to do, and so if people would just, you know, start to be more intentional about how empathetic they are to other people. be more intentional to actually listen to when people ask you, when you ask a question, listen to what they say, and just be a little more aware and figure out how you can incorporate empathy into your culture at your firm, and be that leader who shows people empathy doesn’t just talk about it, showing it and talking are two different things. so hopefully we can start breeding a culture of empathy. because, you know, and i definitely believe, like i’m an i was born in 1970 so, you know, i went through that. whatever they call us, i don’t even what generation we are doesn’t matter. but we didn’t, we didn’t really, we didn’t really talk about this stuff. and it is different. it is new age. liz, it’s different. these conversations are nothing we would have ever had when i was 20 years old. oh my god, i’m gonna run through the wall before i’m gonna talk about this stuff. but i’ve learned it’s, it’s it’s important. and if it’s important to people, then it’s important to me and to treat people the right way. again, not perfect. you know, maybe some of you listeners, i’ve not treated you the best, and i apologize right now for that. i’m not perfect, but i really am. i’ve really become so much more aware in the last couple of years about how important it is, so hopefully we can one at a time. liz,
liz farr
one at a time, that’s all we can do. that’s all we can do. well, i want to thank you so much dawn for coming back and sharing your wisdom and your passion, your enthusiasm and your your wonderful experiences with us. thank you.
dawn brolin
thank you. liz, you’re always so wonderful. anything for liz, like i said, one of the most empathetic people i’ve ever met.
liz farr
yeah. now, if listeners want to connect with you, where can they find you?
dawn brolin
yeah, usually the easiest thing is linkedin, just my, my things dawn brolin pretty simple, you know, because that way i can answer messages and stuff like that. it’s just an easy one place to get me. i’m on, obviously all the other things, but that one i prefer, because it’s just, it’s one spot i can go make sure i don’t miss somebody’s comment or question or whatever.