these delicate dialogues need structure, not spontaneity.
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by rory henry cfp®, bfa™
for 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间
money is one of the things that people think about most. yet, most people aren’t comfortable discussing it openly.
in a new episode of holistic guide to wealth management, we sit down with erika wasserman, cft, a certified financial therapist, keynote speaker, and author of “conversations with your financial therapist: stories and scripts to grow your money mindset,” to talk about why money conversations about are so often avoided and how advisors, families, and individuals can begin to change that dynamic.
wasserman’s journey into financial therapy was shaped by personal experience. she grew up in a rare household where talking about money was normal. she earned a degree in finance from the university of florida and began her career consulting with ibm. over time, major life transitions, including international moves, marriage, divorce, and raising three children, have deepened her understanding of how financial decisions intersect with emotions, identity, and relationships.
a turning point for wasserman came after the death of her father, who she described as her lifelong “accountability partner.” her mother, she explains, grew up in a generation when women could not open their own bank accounts. for help, she relied on her father, then her husband, and then on wasserman when she became a widow. “she was my first client,” wasserman recalls. when wasserman later discovered the field of financial therapy, she said she felt as though a lightning bolt had struck: “this is what i want to do in my life.”
what financial therapy really is
wasserman is quick to point out that financial therapy focuses on the emotional side of money. “our relationship with money has so much impact on our decision making, on our relationships, and our health,” she says. she traced the field’s roots back to the 2008 financial crisis, when professionals from psychology and finance came together to form the financial therapy association.
in her own practice, wasserman focuses entirely on each client’s mindset rather than on dollars and cents. she explains that research shows people’s early experiences with money, sometimes as young as age seven, can shape how they make financial decisions (or don’t make them) decades later as adults.
the money mindset method
a central part of wasserman’s work is her five-step money mindset method, a framework she developed after noticing recurring patterns in her client conversations.
- make the conversation comfortable. “we tend to skip over [this step] because we just want it over with,” wasserman says. instead, she encourages clients to be intentional about their timing and environment. she believes people should put the same preparation into their money conversations as they would a first date and not treat them as rushed discussions as they’re heading out the door.
- ask one question at a time. “how do you eat an elephant?” she asks. “one bite at a time.” she cautions against piling multiple financial issues into a single conversation and suggests using tools like sticky notes or scheduling follow-up discussions to stay focused.
- nurture shared goals. using examples such as youth sports or family travel, wasserman emphasizes the importance of understanding why a goal is important. “if it’s not important to us as a family, then that’s a different conversation,” she says. without shared purpose, financial plans often fall apart.
- evaluate practical solutions. wasserman encourages couples to brainstorm rather than debate when it comes to money. “it doesn’t have to be my way. it doesn’t have to be your way,” she says. she suggests setting a timer, writing down ideas independently, and then sharing those ideas instead of talking at one another.
- say yes to compassion. “compassion for yourself. compassion for the other person that’s having a conversation,” she says. without it, she has found that even well-structured discussions can still derail.
talking with parents and adult children
many advisors work with clients who support both children and aging parents, a dynamic that wasserman jokingly calls “the panini press.” when it comes to supporting parents, she recommends starting with timing and storytelling. “think about the last time you had a productive conversation with them,” she says, suggesting taking car rides or walks with elderly parents as lower-pressure environments for discussing money issues.
storytelling can also help create urgency. for instance, tell your mother: ”hey, mom, you know, uncle jack passed away recently, and he left his finances in a mess. they were digging through his drawers, and there was so much pressure on the family who was dealing with the emotional toll of the death.”
“i don’t want to be digging through your drawers,” you could say. opening the door to conversations about organization and planning. one practical tool she recommends is creating a “piece of life folder,” starting with a list of all the financial professionals who work with the parents, including accountants, attorneys, and financial advisors.
according to wasserman, early exposure to money helps build confidence in children. “get them comfortable with it,” she says. for example, wasserman’s teenage daughters have roth iras and discuss saving, investing, and values openly with her.
divorce, shame, and rebuilding
wasserman also works extensively with clients who are navigating divorce. she explains that many people arrive at the divorce table without knowing basic financial details, overwhelmed emotionally and focused on ending the process rather than planning ahead.
“your money is with you till the day you die,” she says. for clients who feel paralyzed by indecision, she recommends taking very small steps. “for some of my clients, i will just have them log in and look at their finances for five minutes a day,” she says. over time, familiarity replaces fear.
she also addresses the role of shame. “if you’ve made a money mistake, don’t let shame count you out of learning this skill,” she says. “all of us have made money mistakes.”
starting the conversation
to help people begin, wasserman created financial “conversation cards,” with questions on one side. one of her favorite prompts is simple: “what’s your favorite bill to pay?” while bills often carry negative associations, she said they also reflect values. “it’s providing the life that you’re living in,” she says.
for advisors, wasserman believes storytelling and curiosity are powerful tools. she describes two broad personality types: the “how” person and the “wow” person. “the how is, how are we going to get this done? the wow is: ‘we’re going to retire in hawaii,’” she said. understanding whether a client is a ‘wow’ person or a ‘how’ person can shape how advisors follow up and communicate with them.
ultimately, wasserman’s message is about practice. “start the conversation,” she says. she encourages people to build in pause points, even suggesting a shared “password” that signals it is time to take a break when emotions run high. “we haven’t had a lot of practice doing it,” she says, “but the reps get easier.”
5 advis-ror® takeaways
- money conversations need structure, not spontaneity. wasserman stresses that choosing the right time, place, and tone matters more than forcing a discussion when emotions or distractions are high.
- one question at a time reduces overwhelm. she repeatedly emphasized slowing conversations down, avoiding huge “elephant-sized” discussions, and breaking money topics into smaller, manageable parts.
- shared goals must be explicit, not assumed. wasserman highlighted that families often think they agree on goals, but conflict arises when values and priorities are never clearly articulated.
- confidence comes from familiarity, not from perfection. she described helping clients take small steps, even just looking at finances briefly, to reduce fear and build comfort over time.
- compassion keeps conversations from shutting down. wasserman underscored the importance of compassion for yourself and others, especially when shame, divorce, or past money mistakes are present.
more about erika wasserman, cft
erika wasserman is one of only 100 certified financial therapists in the u.s. with an engaging, relatable approach, she turns the taboo topic of money into actionable confidence, helping individuals and teams reduce financial stress with clarity and ease. through corporate wellness programs and her newly released book, “conversations with your financial therapist,” wasserman is redefining what it means to have a healthy relationship with money.
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transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
[00:00:44] rory henry: all right. hello, everyone. i have another great guest joining me today. she is a certified financial therapist, keynote speaker, and the author of conversations with your financial therapist, stories and scripts to grow your money mindset. she’s worked with organizations like warner music and discovery channel, where she brings practical human-first approach to helping individuals, couples, and financial professionals have better conversations with money. so let me introduce my friend here, erica wasserman. erica, welcome to the show.
[00:01:16] erika wasserman: thanks. i’m excited to have a chat with you and get the audience to listen in even better.
[00:01:21] rory henry: right. this has been a long time coming. i love the work that you’re doing. we are part of the financial behavioral keynote group, and i saw that you were putting out your book. i’m like, oh my gosh, i got to read this, and i did read it, and it was fantastic. so before we kind of get into the book here, why don’t you give our audience a little bit of background on yourself, your journey to become a financial therapist, and maybe define what a financial therapist is for them.
[00:01:45] erika wasserman: wow. that’s a lot of questions.
[00:01:47] rory henry: i know.
[00:01:49] erika wasserman: let’s get into it. so i don’t know about you, but my life’s been a rollercoaster ride.
[00:01:54] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:01:55] erika wasserman: pretty much everybody is, and the ride isn’t always what we think it’s going to be, and it comes with twists and turns and loops that throw you backwards and ones that put your hands up with excitement and that you scream really loud if you’re sitting next to me. right? and so my journey is no different. i grew up in a nuclear family where talking about money was normal. i didn’t know that that was not the norm. right?
[00:02:24] rory henry: yeah.
[00:02:24] erika wasserman: so i keep meeting people throughout my life through the rollercoaster ride, and that wasn’t their background. so for me, it just seemed a natural fit. i ended up going to university of florida, getting a finance degree, and then started consulting with ibm. so the rollercoaster ride is great, and i remember calling my dad. i’m 22 years old. i’m like, oh my god, i’m rich. i’m getting a bmw. right? and the offer letter came in the mail, and he starts laughing. he’s like, no, you’re not. you’re going to ride the honda accord until the wheels fall off.
[00:02:58] rory henry: right.
[00:02:59] erika wasserman: and i’m lucky that i had somebody like him in my corner to guide me, and he’s right. i kept the honda accord until the heat stopped working and all of that. but if not, i would have gotten myself into debt at a very young age. and so it was having somebody that i can have open and honest conversations with that helped build me as i moved into an apartment with a boyfriend in new york city that we probably shouldn’t have afforded, and i met somebody with a different money mindset. so now we had to work on merging money. you’re nodding, right? it’s not an easy thing.
[00:03:32] rory henry: it’s not easy.
[00:03:34] erika wasserman: and then we had the opportunity to move to japan. so went overseas, did two years in tokyo, and had a baby. so now we are changing currency, we’re changing culture, we’re changing, expanding money for a new family member. we moved to china after that. again, ibm. i’ve been moved. it also stands.
[00:03:57] rory henry: i’ve been moved.
[00:03:59] erika wasserman: and then moved home and had two more kids. so i had three kids under the age of three, sorry, three kids under the age of four and got a divorce. so that rollercoaster ride went down really fast and really steep, and man, i remember laying on the floor and not knowing what life was going to look like or what i was going to do with my life, and i had boxes crawling all over me, and it was a really tough time. but what i knew is i had the courage to ask questions that led to options and opportunities. and now i have three teenage daughters, and i’m grateful for the decisions that we were able to make in that time period and the guidance that i got, because i wasn’t afraid of asking, helped set us up for our future. and so that’s how my relationship with money occurred. and then my dad passed away, 2017. and not only did i lose my accountability partner, my mom, 50 years of marriage.
[00:05:03] speaker 5: that’s hers.
[00:05:05] erika wasserman: and she grew up in a generation where she’s an educated woman. she was a teacher in new york city in her young 20s, who couldn’t even open up her own bank account. women 50 years ago, just 50 years ago, could open up their own bank account. but when she started, she couldn’t even open up her own bank account. so she went from help from her father to her husband and then turned to me. so without knowing she was my first client, financial therapist, 2019, when i heard the term financial therapy, it was like lightning struck me, like, this is what i want to do in my life. and then i went to kansas state and got certified in financial therapy.
[00:05:46] narration: yeah.
[00:05:46] rory henry: well, let’s define what that is, because you talk about laying on a floor and most people when they hear therapy, they think, you know, laying on that couch and having deep conversations with a therapist. can you talk about for our audience, what a financial therapist is, who do you work with and what does that really look like?
[00:06:03] erika wasserman: so going to a cocktail party, you know, people look at me, i call it the puppy dog look, but the head gets tilted and the eyes get like burrowed. yeah. say that again. yeah. so it’s a really new field. it’s been around since 2008 when the crash in 2008 happened, a group of people got in a room that had a psychology background and that had a finance background and coined and created the financial therapy association because that our relationship with money has so much impact on our decision-making on our relationships and our health. so we, and i’ll speak for myself, right? like if we’re not confident with our bank account, tossing and turning at night, i get in my chest. i feel like constraint. i’m waiting right now for the roofers to come repair my roof for $1,500. right. it doesn’t feel good. it just doesn’t feel good, but neither does a leaking roof. so the mindset around it is that money is going towards a warm roof over my head to protect my family. it feels better to spend that money then this house, you know, and, and, and especially during the holiday season, it gets expensive.
[00:07:21] rory henry: yeah. yeah. i mean, look, i, i love, you know, the work that you’re doing because when people hear financial therapists, they probably get scared and always wishy-washy, but this is something that practitioners can implement into their practice. you have a step-by-step practical way of doing it. let’s dive into that. cause i love your money framework. can you go over that, what the money acronym means and then, you know, how folks can start having better conversations around money?
[00:07:47] erika wasserman: yeah. so i started my financial therapy practice. it was in 2020 and i’m proud to say i’m number 15 that’s certified in this field. and there are roughly a hundred out there. and so it is a growing business in a field because the emotional side of money is everywhere. now i’m a girl that if there’s not available resources, information, i’m going to look for it. i’m going to ask the questions and if i can’t find it, i’m going to build it.
[00:08:16] rory henry: yeah.
[00:08:17] erika wasserman: and so that’s exactly what i did is i went ahead and built the money mindset method. and this was something that i was noticing. i was using repeatedly with my clients. so a lot of my clients are high net worth individuals. these are, you know, people assume if you have money, oh, it’s not a money worry.
[00:08:38] rory henry: no. more money, more problems, right?
[00:08:40] erika wasserman: i’ve heard that song before. and so that’s really what it is. and so this is, could be done, you know, in the book i use madison at 19, you know, has a nail tire. who’s like, here, got new tires. open up your first credit card all the way through talking to aging parents. so the money mindset method uses the word money.
[00:09:01] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:09:03] erika wasserman: it took us a while to come up with it, but once it did, it just clicked. and i was like, yeah, i not think of that earlier. m for money is make the conversation comfortable. and we tend to skip over it because we just want it over with.
[00:09:18] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:09:18] rory henry: right.
[00:09:18] erika wasserman: it’s like, oh god, i have to talk to my brother about, you know, whatever it is, right.
[00:09:24] rory henry: it’s like going to the dentist.
[00:09:27] erika wasserman: most people don’t like doing it.
[00:09:29] rory henry: no.
[00:09:30] rory henry: right.
[00:09:31] erika wasserman: and so we just want it over with. so oftentimes you ask a money question when somebody is running out the door.
[00:09:37] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:09:37] erika wasserman: and so that is set the tone like you would on a nice date with somebody, right? you want to set the tone, you want to set the mood, put a candle on, right.
[00:09:48] rory henry: put some luther vandross, maybe. i don’t know. like, you know, we can create these money dates.
[00:09:52] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:09:53] erika wasserman: so think about the last time you had a productive conversation with that person.
[00:09:56] rory henry: yeah.
[00:09:56] erika wasserman: it could be yourself. it could be your boss.
[00:09:59] erika wasserman: right.
[00:09:59] erika wasserman: it could be your financial advisor. it could be a romantic partner. what time of day was it at? earlier in the morning, you have less decision fatigue.
[00:10:08] rory henry: yeah. coming home from work. yeah. right. you just want to unwind. so it’s probably not the best time to have those conversations.
[00:10:18] erika wasserman: right.
[00:10:19] erika wasserman: you just put the kids to bed, maybe. yeah. like, you’re just, you know, you’re done. you’re drained. and somebody is like, so, and you know when that voice comes, you’re like, i’m already tuned out.
[00:10:31] rory henry: yeah.
[00:10:31] erika wasserman: so make it intentional when to have that conversation. and that’s the first one, m.
[00:10:38] erika wasserman: mm-hmm.
[00:10:39] erika wasserman: oh, one question at a time.
[00:10:41] speaker 6: mm-hmm. yeah.
[00:10:43] erika wasserman: we get into that meeting and all of a sudden it’s like, oh, they’re sitting here and we get excited.
[00:10:47] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:10:48] erika wasserman: so while we’re here, we’re here talking about buying a new car, right? the car’s on its last leg. we need to get a new car. and then, and then it’s like, well, what about a house, right?
[00:11:03] rory henry: what about the kid’s college education? but you’re saying how you eat an elephant is one bite at a time.
[00:11:10] erika wasserman: exactly. exactly. and if you need help, write it on a sticky note, put it in front of you. so that way we’re like, we’re focusing on this right now.
[00:11:17] erika wasserman: on this, yeah.
[00:11:17] erika wasserman: let’s schedule another time to focus on that. but right now we’re focused on this. and then like for co-parenting, i tell people, put a picture of the kids in front of you if you need to.
[00:11:28] rory henry: ah, yeah. the reminder.
[00:11:30] erika wasserman: this is what we’re doing it for. and then that leads to n, which is nurtured share goals. so let’s talk about that for a second. the kid wants to do travel. the kid wants to do travel baseball.
[00:11:44] rory henry: yeah.
[00:11:44] erika wasserman: okay. i live in south florida. travel baseball is really expensive.
[00:11:48] rory henry: expensive. yeah. yeah.
[00:11:49] erika wasserman: but really good. right. right. to be a part of these programs. but why is it important to us? as a family. and if it’s not, then that’s a different conversation because you’re not going to hit your financial goal.
[00:12:04] erika wasserman: right.
[00:12:04] erika wasserman: so nurture the shared goal. then comes my favorite one, e, is evaluate practical solutions.
[00:12:12] rory henry: ah. different options.
[00:12:15] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:12:16] erika wasserman: it doesn’t have to be my way, it doesn’t have to be your way. and an idea that i tip here i’ll give you is set your timer for two minutes. each of you can take out your phone or a piece of paper and just do a brainstorm.
[00:12:28] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:12:28] erika wasserman: what resources are there? right. if we’re going to travel, who’s going to stay in what hotel if you’re together or separated? right. can we join with another family if it’s my weekend or your weekend? brainstorm are the resources in the community that we can reach out to. is there a way to make extra income by coaching or umping or whatever it is? right. do the brainstorm. right. and then share the ideas. third option, throw it in chat gpt, see what chuck has to say. right. right. right. make resources that you haven’t thought of or a way to solve the problem.
[00:13:04] rory henry: yeah.
[00:13:04] erika wasserman: so talking at one another, talk with each other, which leads me to why? say yes to compassion.
[00:13:13] rory henry: oh, i love it.
[00:13:14] erika wasserman: compassion for yourself.
[00:13:16] rory henry: yeah.
[00:13:17] erika wasserman: for the other person that’s having a conversation.
[00:13:19] rory henry: yeah.
[00:13:21] erika wasserman: so rinse and repeat any stage of life.
[00:13:24] rory henry: right. um, i absolutely love it. i mean, that’s, that, uh, really, uh, i advocate for that return on relationship. and so, you know, having compassion for yourself, it’s that relationship with yourself and in the relationship with your, with your partner and your, in your family, you know, um, but uh, saying yes to the relationship with you first, take care of yourself, put the oxygen mask on yourself, and then you can take care of it, you know, your kids and, and, and your family. so i absolutely love it. now you mentioned erica, you know, having conversations, um, you know, i want you to touch on maybe, um, having conversations with kids and then maybe having conversations with elder parents because, you know, the many folks in our audience are probably that, that living, you know, um, where they’re taking care of their children and also caring for their elder parents. so, um, let’s talk about that first. i give you two questions at once, but let’s go one by one here and use erica’s method. let’s talk about how we can start having these conversations with our parents because many folks out there are caring for them. uh, and i know there’s ways and steps we can start having them, um, in a, in a constructive way.
[00:14:31] erika wasserman: yeah. yeah. one by one.
[00:14:33] rory henry: i like, i like that. i’m learning here, erica.
[00:14:36] erika wasserman: yes. and i don’t call it the sandwich generation. it’s the panini press.
[00:14:40] rory henry: the panini press. i like it.
[00:14:42] erika wasserman: all right. i’m in it right now. i got three teenage daughters. we’re talking college. we’re talking all these things, cars, and then i got, you know, uh, parents to take care of as well. or my mom now. so how do you do it with parents again, think about the last time you had a productive conversation with them.
[00:15:00] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:15:00] erika wasserman: is it driving in the car?
[00:15:02] erika wasserman: no.
[00:15:03] erika wasserman: sitting side by side. that’s a good way of doing it. or out for a walk. i’ve also found that storytelling works really well to create a sense of urgency. hey, hey mom. you know, uncle jack passed away recently and he left his finances in a mess and they were digging through his drawers and there was so much pressure on the family that was dealing with the emotional toll of the death.
[00:15:28] rory henry: right. and now on top of that, they’re working through, you know, the financial issues, right.
[00:15:33] erika wasserman: they’re trying to figure out things. they don’t even know forensic accountant, the government, probate, whatever it is. they’re spending money and hours. like i don’t want to be digging through your drawers, need to drink through your drawers, you know, kind of situation. can we set up a meeting to go over your finances? yeah. can you give me a list of where your banks are? just certain things to start the conversation. that tends to engage people because it taps into their emotion and maybe even their personal experience when somebody passed away.
[00:16:05] rory henry: yeah. i think, you know, i saw in the book that you start out with that list could be a great way to ignite the conversation. i think that’s probably better than having them log into their accounts and doing the digital, you know, accounting of all their assets and liabilities. so i think you’re right. maybe using or putting yourself in their shoes and maybe, you know, building a list first of folks who, you know, from attorneys to accountants to financial advisors is probably a great first step to start the process here.
[00:16:41] erika wasserman: yeah. i call it a piece of life folder.
[00:16:43] rory henry: yeah.
[00:16:45] erika wasserman: and what that does, it just, the vet, right? right. the vet. you know, the accountant, because at some point i’m gonna have to find your taxes. like let’s start there and then the next time you’re meeting with your financial advisor, can i come into that conversation? right. and if they’re like, no, i don’t know dollars amounts, that’s okay, but at least give me the phone number so that we have a relationship and i know what you want to do with the money.
[00:17:13] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:17:13] erika wasserman: so a lot of assumptions are made and you know what the word assumption, you know, assume makes an asset of you and me. and we don’t want that. i don’t want that. i want your legacy that you’ve worked so hard to build live on in the right way.
[00:17:32] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:17:33] erika wasserman: so another thing is if they choose not to include certain family members or the reasonings are different is i would ask them to do a quick video, you know, or, or write a letter, you know, of what their reasoning was so you’re not left behind trying to explain to a sibling, like you’re cut out of the will, you know, and, and the resentment maybe builds with that sibling. so, or mom said, i get that piece of jewelry, just document it, you know, document everything. and today we have technology that can do that pretty easily.
[00:18:08] rory henry: yeah, we do. to really capture those conversations. and i agree that the ai meeting tools in the well space are, you know, have been very valuable for firms out there. well, let’s then now let’s talk about having that conversation with, you know, kids because i know there’s age appropriate conversations we can have, but there’s a way for us to get them involved in the process of talking about money, you know, getting them started out on their financial journey early on that can really have an outsized impact. let’s talk about some, some tips or best practices and speaking with kids.
[00:18:41] erika wasserman: yeah, get comfortable with it.
[00:18:43] rory henry: yeah.
[00:18:43] erika wasserman: so, you know, last night at my house, the kids were talking, and they were, and i have teenagers that all have had jobs at this point, they’re gonna have 401ks, yeah, right or roth iras, whatever. so i set them up, right. and so they were sharing with their cousins last night, i already got my retirement plan going.
[00:19:02] rory henry: yeah.
[00:19:02] erika wasserman: you know, and so because in our house, it’s like, great, here comes your first paycheck. but what are we going to do with it, you get to keep some of it. and some of it, we’re going to do long term planning, and some of it we’re gonna do investing. and then every once in a while, come here, let’s look at a stock that you want, you know, where are you shopping at? do you do you believe is going to go further? let’s put, you know, one share in there. it doesn’t have to be big things, right at this point, it’s it’s small movements, and therefore the accounts are also created for them. so now you take that barrier, where especially as an advisor, you see where people just are afraid to fill out the paperwork.
[00:19:36] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:19:37] erika wasserman: so if the kids have the structure in place already, they’re just naturally going to flow into or more have, they’ll be able to flow into saving and investing because it’s already set up for them, right?
[00:19:52] rory henry: it’s something that’s tangible that they’re actively involved in, and it’s their money. so they have a stake in the proverbial game of money.
[00:20:00] erika wasserman: exactly. exactly. so talking again, we’re talking about cars and, and insurances, and, you know, my daughters don’t like my car, you know, now that they are driving, and they can see what they’re getting. it’s a 2017. and, yeah. and so my daughter yesterday, in fact, was like, oh, my economics class, we’re talking now i understand why you’re keeping your car, like, i rather spend my money on travel. and because that aligns with my values.
[00:20:29] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:20:30] erika wasserman: experiences. yeah.
[00:20:33] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:20:35] erika wasserman: conversations help build your kids confidence and talking about money.
[00:20:40] rory henry: yeah. i like it now. you talk openly about your divorce. and i know you work with a lot of divorcees. so i want to, you know, maybe have you touch on well, i want to have you touch on really having these conversations with folks who are going through a very trying time because you went through it yourself. you know, you work with folks, financial separation. so, you know, i know you say there are predictable stakes that show up again and again. so i’d love to have you share, you know, what those mistakes are, and then, you know, how we can help avoid them or help folks deal, you know, with, you know, divorce.
[00:21:18] erika wasserman: yeah, well, we can have a whole podcast.
[00:21:22] rory henry: we will.
[00:21:23] erika wasserman: i mean, the reality is divorce and death, i think, are the same, except one brings casseroles and one doesn’t. so if you’re going through a divorce, traditionally, what i’ve seen is one person handles the finances in a relationship doesn’t mean they’re better at it. it just means that they defaulted or drew the short straw at doing it. so when you go to the divorce table, and they start asking for paperwork and documents, a lot of people don’t even know their logins. forget about the amount of credit card debt or investments or, you know, where their retirements are, what they’re entitled to. and so, so much chaos is going on, been there, done that, you know, where you’re not future thinking, you just want to deal with the emotional toll is a lot. and that’s where it’s really helpful to check the emotional piece when you’re when you’re working with finances, hiring the right people to make sure that they can see the vision when you can’t. because your money is with you to the day you die, right? and pass because we talked about legacy and probing. and so having a clear understanding, getting comfortable with it, some of my clients, i will just have them log in and look at their finances for five minutes a day, for a week. they’ve never seen these numbers before. and just like starting a new habit, you just have to get comfortable.
[00:22:47] rory henry: a small step. yeah.
[00:22:49] erika wasserman: because the reality is the next step is building your financial relationship.
[00:22:54] rory henry: yeah.
[00:22:54] erika wasserman: this next stage. and that’s going to be negotiating for housing, negotiating for, you know, vacation time with the kids. you know, how much do you want to spend? maybe conversations you haven’t had to have with yourself. so think about your relationship with money like you would a new hobby that you’re picking up. think about it as pickleball. you weren’t great at it at first, right? right.
[00:23:16] rory henry: but you picked it up. yeah.
[00:23:17] erika wasserman: you picked it up. you practiced. you talked to people. you watched youtube.
[00:23:20] rory henry: you got in the kitchen. you know, it was hot in that kitchen, but you got into the kitchen.
[00:23:23] erika wasserman: right. so with your finances, get in the kitchen. and don’t be scared to ask because all of us have made money mistakes. have you made a money mistake?
[00:23:34] rory henry: of course.
[00:23:35] rory henry: yeah.
[00:23:36] erika wasserman: and buffett, you know, i mean, you can ask anyone. they’ve made a money mistake. i have. and i will continue to.
[00:23:44] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:23:44] erika wasserman: right. we’re all human. and so if you’ve made a money mistake, don’t let shame count you out of learning this skill.
[00:23:52] rory henry: yeah. again, money. well, i also love erica. you do have some great first like question initiators. i think one was like, what’s your favorite bill to pay?
[00:24:05] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:24:06] rory henry: let’s talk about that and some other ways that we could just start the conversation.
[00:24:10] erika wasserman: yeah. so back to when i was starting financial therapy, this is probably on 2001, covid ish time period. i was sitting at a bar, you know, good ideas come to you in the shower. and the couple next to me was doing conversation cards. and she’s like, it’s our 10 year anniversary. and i just don’t want to stare at him. so we bring a deck of cards on every vacation that we take together, something new. and that’s when the lightbulb moment went off. people kept coming to me saying, i could never ask that question. i wouldn’t even think to ask that question. and so i created let’s talk finances. i was gonna see if i have it here. i do. conversation cards.
[00:24:53] erika wasserman: i love it.
[00:24:54] erika wasserman: so this is a couple’s edition could be used for a group of people, families. and then i jokingly say, if you don’t do the couple’s edition, you’ll need the divorce edition.
[00:25:02] speaker 6: yeah.
[00:25:03] erika wasserman: and this is when you’re redefining that relationship we were just talking about. but the couple’s edition is pick a card and just start asking. and yeah. one of my favorite questions is what’s your favorite bill to pay? it stucks people.
[00:25:16] rory henry: well, can my rams season tickets be my favorite bill to pay? of course it can. right.
[00:25:24] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:25:24] erika wasserman: it can be because that aligns with your values.
[00:25:28] rory henry: yeah.
[00:25:28] erika wasserman: right.
[00:25:29] erika wasserman: so if somebody says to you, let’s go to a chiefs game, you’d be like, i already got my money spent somewhere else.
[00:25:38] speaker 6: right.
[00:25:39] erika wasserman: and so that’s what’s important. so for me, when my kids were younger, my favorite bill to pay was my baby’s.
[00:25:47] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:25:48] erika wasserman: i needed help in the house.
[00:25:50] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:25:50] erika wasserman: today, my favorite bill to pay as much as i was just complaining about my roof is my home. you know, 14 years later, my kids have never had to move.
[00:26:00] rory henry: yeah.
[00:26:01] rory henry: stability.
[00:26:03] erika wasserman: right. so if that means one less trip, one less, you know, not season tickets to the rams for me because that’s not what i value. sorry. right. you know, but the warm roof over my head and the house, me and my kids does, it makes me feel better every month when i’m paying it.
[00:26:21] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:26:22] erika wasserman: and so we, we are taught to have a negative connotation of bills with bills.
[00:26:29] rory henry: yeah.
[00:26:30] erika wasserman: but it’s providing the life that you’re living in.
[00:26:33] rory henry: that’s the why, yeah.
[00:26:38] rory henry: i love it. you know, and i think that, you know, obviously we talk about it in the world that we’re in, that money is such a taboo topic. and i believe that we just need to have, start having these conversations, you know, at the dinner table, right. you know, with our partner, you know, with our colleagues and for the folks in our audience with our clients. so are there any other best practices that maybe our cpa and financial advisor audience can like implement in their practice to help start these money conversations with their clients?
[00:27:13] erika wasserman: yeah. so with your clients, it’s storytelling.
[00:27:16] rory henry: yeah.
[00:27:16] erika wasserman: it’s, i know you don’t get paid for the storytelling, but you’ll get insights into how your client works.
[00:27:23] rory henry: yeah.
[00:27:24] erika wasserman: so let’s talk about that for a second. my view is there’s two types of people. there’s the how person and a wow person. wow person. right. so the how is, how are we going to get this done? the wow is like, we’re going to retire in hawaii.
[00:27:38] rory henry: yeah.
[00:27:38] erika wasserman: then the how person’s like, how are we going to get there? how are the grandkids going to get there? you know, who’s going to vacuum the sand, you know? right.
[00:27:45] rory henry: the implementer versus the visionary. yeah.
[00:27:48] erika wasserman: exactly. so when you’re talking to your clients and understanding what their favorite bill to pay is, you know, did they get allowance as a kid? how did they use it? and then all of a sudden you’re going to start to see their patterns come out. it’s going to help you prepare better for your meeting with them. how you follow up better, because if you understand how they like to follow up. and so for like the visionaries that we’re talking about, the wows, one of the questions that i encourage to ask is when was the last time or how was it best that you created or completed a goal? how was it best for me to react, to, to interact with you, to follow up with you? because most cpas, advisors, or how people, right? like, you know, we’re going to put paperwork in the next day. you know, just say, i want to learn more about you and what works best for you and meeting them where they are. and so a lot of it is asking, conversation and listening.
[00:28:54] rory henry: and then letting them tell their story.
[00:28:58] erika wasserman: yes.
[00:28:59] rory henry: you know, i, i always say that we’re really in the business of helping people uncover their stories, you know, their stories, you know, from early on in their life and what got them to this point, you know, what led them to create that business, start that business, grow that business. and then ultimately we can be a guide there and help them uncover what they ideally want in the future. and that’s that vision of a better tomorrow.
[00:29:22] erika wasserman: so it’s interesting. cambridge did a study that our money mindset is created at age seven.
[00:29:28] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:29:30] erika wasserman: so when you’re dealing with all these business owners that have exited businesses, running successful businesses in their head, they’re still seven.
[00:29:38] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:29:38] erika wasserman: how their parents were making money, what, what they were eating at lunch table, right. or not eating at lunch. it’s always a favorite question for me to ask them is second grade. did you bring lunch? did you buy lunch? i had a group workshop recently and one woman said she was embarrassed. she hated her lunches because it was all just cheap junk food. and somebody else said, i was always jealous. i had a buy lunch. my parents never made lunch for us. i was always jealous of the kids that got to trade food at the lunch table.
[00:30:10] rory henry: right.
[00:30:11] rory henry: that was a financial flashpoint.
[00:30:13] erika wasserman: isn’t that amazing? and so it stays with us as adults without the conversations. so that’s a great referral for me is when you’re in these conversations and you want to move on to the next thing, you know, they’re investing their conversations and you know, they need deeper work to be done. that’s a great referral to a financial therapist because that’s the work that we do. so at personally, in my practice that you’re a financial therapist, we don’t touch money at all. we touch only the mindset. the other senses and how you get all the other senses. so with that is we dig into that childhood mindset, current mindset, future growth of what you want and how you want to build your legacy down. so family offices work great with and adult children, conversations, blended families i work with. all of this complicated stuff that add layers of difficulty in your beginning and in your work with a little bit of massaging, conversation, giving it breath, right? instead of holding it within. that’s the work of the massage therapist.
[00:31:37] erika wasserman: i love it. yeah.
[00:31:38] erika wasserman: massage therapist. financial therapist. massage therapist. visual.
[00:31:42] rory henry: you’re just massaging mindsets is what you’re doing there, erica. well, this has been a wonderful and very illuminating, erica. is there anything that i didn’t ask you that you think our audience should know about?
[00:31:57] erika wasserman: no. the one thing that i would encourage you to do is start the conversation, is start it and start it in an open way instead of pointing fingers. why didn’t you do that? doesn’t really set you up for a positive response back. so setting the tone is really important. and i’ll give you one last tip to leave on.
[00:32:19] rory henry: okay.
[00:32:20] erika wasserman: come up with a password. you know when that conversation is not going well, right? you can have a password in your head if you’re working with a client for yourself to be like, okay, we’re going to pineapple pizza, whatever you want to call it, or with your partner or with your sibling or with your parent where you know you need to take a break. go take the 10 minutes, go walk around the block, go put music on whatever you need to come back and be productive. these can be really emotional and really straining because we haven’t had a lot of practice doing it.
[00:32:50] rory henry: exactly. you’re absolutely right. and i think what you’ve been advocating for and what the book’s about is we need to start practicing and getting those reps in and the reps get easier just like working out and you get stronger and stronger with these conversations and improve your money mindset. and then i think for folks out there too, like we need to have those conversations from the next generation. i think it’s on us within the financial therapy association, the financial therapists out there, the cfps, the cpas, right? the financial professionals start to help folks, the clients out there have conversations as well to improve the lives of the families that they work with.
[00:33:31] erika wasserman: yeah.
[00:33:31] erika wasserman: well, that’s why i put scripts in the back.
[00:33:33] rory henry: yeah. i love it.
[00:33:34] erika wasserman: literally there’s scripts of what the conversation could be like when your adult daughter moves back home and wants the air on a different temperature more than you are willing to pay for your electric bill, right? how do you have that conversation? how? what would it look like?
[00:33:47] rory henry: yeah.
[00:33:47] erika wasserman: and start sparking some ideas.
[00:33:50] rory henry: i love it. yeah. you give us the wow and the how. so erica, what’s the best way for someone to order the book if they want to learn more?
[00:33:58] erika wasserman: yeah, absolutely. so on amazon, your financial therapist, you can pull up my store, that’s where the books and the cards are. my website is yourfinancialtherapist.com on social medias, your financial therapist. so really try to streamline it. if you remember the brand, you can find me pretty much anywhere.